Jerry Brown's letter to TDN on HOY discussion

[Smooth Operator]

Lol … did the "new owner" conveniently forget about the race she won at Keeneland, spencer?

The guy made a BUSH-LEAGUE call to skip the championship event and I'd love to see it bite him in the ass.


And yeah, she can get 10 panels … hell, any horse can run that far. Question is … could she get the classic distance with a high-quality router like Z breathing down her throat in the lane?

HIGHLY unlikely, in my estimation…

[letswastemoney]

Cigar won a turf race or maybe two. Doesn't mean it was the right surface for him though. No one ever penalized Cigar for being only a dirt horse.

[brianwspencer]

Originally Posted by Smooth Operator

Lol … did the "new owner" conveniently forget about the race she won at Keeneland, spencer?

The guy made a BUSH-LEAGUE call to skip the championship event and I'd love to see it bite him in the ass.


And yeah, she can get 10 panels … hell, any horse can run that far. Question is … could she get the classic distance with a high-quality router like Z breathing down her throat in the lane?

HIGHLY unlikely, in my estimation…

Do you pay even the minimum amount of attention to understand that not every synthetic surface operates the same, Smooth?

I'd be more than willing to take a frontrunner to Keeneland under the right circumstances...why anyone would take one to Santa Anita is beyond me.

The guy made a perfect call given his runner's style and affinity for a certain surface, and the fact that he decided to skip the BC has no more bearing on his charge's talents than does the fact that they skipped the Beverly D. on the lawn this summer. More succinctly, he wants his dirt horse to run on dirt...where dirt horses run. Not on the turf, not on Pro-Ride, which plays just like turf and nothing like dirt, which is why you saw the best Grade I turf field assembled all year for the biggest "dirt" race of the year. Please.

[10 pnt move up]

Originally Posted by brianwspencer

The guy made a perfect call given his runner's style and affinity for a certain surface, and the fact that he decided to skip the BC has no more bearing on his charge's talents than does the fact that they skipped the Beverly D. on the lawn this summer.

no effect on talent correct, but maybe should have an affect on an Eclipse Award?

Totally agree with this statement, though he played a little gamble when it came to the Eclipse Awards. He skipped the championship event and gambled that Zenyatta would not be good enough to win the classic (and lets face it just about ever pro capper was on his side on that call).

Now its a closer race. No way a east coast horse does not get the edge here, the media is in the east so that will be way to much for Zenyatta to overcome in a ballot deal.

[Merlinsky]

Rachel's easing back into training. Let's play a game of 'spot the amusing typo' shall we? http://www.ntra.com/content.aspx?type=news&id=43558

What's the timeline for HOY ballots going out and being due? I know somebody said the deadline awhile back but I can't remember.

[dalakhani]

Is it fair to say that the Clark supports Zenyatta's case a litte bit? Just a little bit?

[Merlinsky]

Originally Posted by dalakhani

Is it fair to say that the Clark supports Zenyatta's case a litte bit? Just a little bit?

How? Einstein threw in a spectacular clunker at SA. It's hardly indicative of the quality of that field, and it says more that he's a better horse than he showed in the BCC.

[dalakhani]

Originally Posted by Merlinsky

How? Einstein threw in a spectacular clunker at SA. It's hardly indicative of the quality of that field, and it says more that he's a better horse than he showed in the BCC.

Okay, but what does this race say about those horses that were in the woodward?

[RolloTomasi]

Originally Posted by dalakhani

Okay, but what does this race say about those horses that were in the woodward?

Their connections should have taken Jess Jackson's cue, and gave their horses a break?

[dalakhani]

Originally Posted by RolloTomasi

Their connections should have taken Jess Jackson's cue, and gave their horses a break?

Perhaps. Or perhaps it reinforces the notion that the older horses Rachel beat in the woodward were garbage.

[RolloTomasi]

Originally Posted by dalakhani

Perhaps. Or perhaps it reinforces the notion that the older horses Rachel beat in the woodward were garbage.

Possibly. I certainly wouldn't try to compare them to Awesome Gem or Colonel John.

You know, the good older horses.

[dalakhani]

Originally Posted by RolloTomasi

Possibly. I certainly wouldn't try to compare them to Awesome Gem or Colonel John.

You know, the good older horses.

LOL. Touche.

She certainly didnt beat anything on the level of Einstein. Is that fair to say?

[RolloTomasi]

Originally Posted by dalakhani

LOL. Touche.

She certainly didnt beat anything on the level of Einstein. Is that fair to say?

Not if you just watched a replay of the Stephen Foster.

[Merlinsky]

Originally Posted by dalakhani

LOL. Touche.

She certainly didnt beat anything on the level of Einstein. Is that fair to say?

Arguably neither did Zenyatta, given what Einstein turned in BC day. Macho Again and Bullsbay were probably in their top form for the Woodward. At least part of the facing solid older males, whatever the gender of the 3yo, is dealing with the mental pressure. I'm not altogether sure RA didn't realize these were tough experienced horses and that she decided to handle them anyway. I hate implying Z wouldn't have beaten them in the same form that RA did, because both of them had the ability. RA fought past an obstacle that Z didn't the opportunity to match, not really Z's fault.

[10 pnt move up]

Originally Posted by Merlinsky

Arguably neither did Zenyatta, given what Einstein turned in BC day. Macho Again and Bullsbay were probably in their top form for the Woodward. At least part of the facing solid older males, whatever the gender of the 3yo, is dealing with the mental pressure. I'm not altogether sure RA didn't realize these were tough experienced horses and that she decided to handle them anyway. I hate implying Z wouldn't have beaten them in the same form that RA did, because both of them had the ability. RA fought past an obstacle that Z didn't the opportunity to match, not really Z's fault.

I actually think Gio Ponte is a quality horse on either surface, and ran his race.

[Travis Stone]

Originally Posted by dalakhani

Okay, but what does this race say about those horses that were in the woodward?

Nothing.

What is driving me nuts in the entire debate is no one takes into consideration the dynamics of pace. Pace can make any horse look good, or bad.

Does anyone really think Dare and Go was better than Cigar? Of course not, but the pace killed Cigar. Only truly amazing superstars, of which we've probably only seen one in the past decade, can overcome it.

As for the Woodward, Macho Again, regardless of how he finished in the Clark, was a good horse at Saratoga this summer. He was given the Woodward trophy on a platter when they turned for home and he still couldn't grab it. For Rachel to be pressured and pressed like she was and still find enough to hold-on late is remarkable.

The Clark says nothing to the Horse of the Year debate. It is a non-starter when you consider the dynamics, which no one seems to want to do.

[dalakhani]

Originally Posted by Travis Stone

Nothing.

What is driving me nuts in the entire debate is no one takes into consideration the dynamics of pace. Pace can make any horse look good, or bad.

Does anyone really think Dare and Go was better than Cigar? Of course not, but the pace killed Cigar. Only truly amazing superstars, of which we've probably only seen one in the past decade, can overcome it.

As for the Woodward, Macho Again, regardless of how he finished in the Clark, was a good horse at Saratoga this summer. He was given the Woodward trophy on a platter when they turned for home and he still couldn't grab it. For Rachel to be pressured and pressed like she was and still find enough to hold-on late is remarkable.

The Clark says nothing to the Horse of the Year debate. It is a non-starter when you consider the dynamics, which no one seems to want to do.

Was the pace of the clark particularly slow? I didn't think so. They ran a 47 and 3 half. Regardless of time, it was pretty well contested and two horses that were on the lead finished dead last and second to last and one of those horses was a top betting choice. Einstein managed to rally from the clouds to get a minor share.

Saying that Macho again was a "good horse at saratoga this summer" seems like you are implying that Macho Again particularly relishes that track. In fact, Bullsbay and Macho Again both had done very well previously at churchill downs.

So what happened to the second and third place finishers of the woodward in this race?

[RolloTomasi]

Originally Posted by dalakhani

So what happened to the second and third place finishers of the woodward in this race?

What happened to Holy Bull in the Fountain of Youth? What happened to Afleet Alex in the Rebel? What happened to Point Given in the Derby?

Horses come in and out of form. They don't always show their best every time out. Why does a horse's previous races become moot just because its latest was below par?

[dalakhani]

Originally Posted by RolloTomasi

What happened to Holy Bull in the Fountain of Youth? What happened to Afleet Alex in the Rebel? What happened to Point Given in the Derby?

Horses come in and out of form. They don't always show their best every time out. Why does a horse's previous races become moot just because its latest was below par?

If we were talking about just ONE horse it would be one thing but we are talking about two. Were they both simply off form?

[Merlinsky]

Originally Posted by dalakhani

Saying that Macho again was a "good horse at saratoga this summer" seems like you are implying that Macho Again particularly relishes that track. In fact, Bullsbay and Macho Again both had done very well previously at churchill downs.

So what happened to the second and third place finishers of the woodward in this race?

That didn't seem to be what Travis was implying at all. It in no way means Macho Again's only good at Saratoga. What I believe several of us are saying (including Steve if I'm remembering my At the Races well--please correct me if I'm wrong Steve) is that at this time in their seasons, Macho Again and Bullsbay had form that was strong and moving up. RA caught them when they'd be most primed this year to give her a tussle and she still beat them.

Of course, as usual, Haskin says it best: http://cs.bloodhorse.com/blogs/horse...he-rescue.aspx