La Troienne discussion

[Indian Charlie]

Originally Posted by richard burch

perhaps you need to watch a few of her past races.

sometimes a horse is just a horse.

Are you really telling me that I should watch her past races?

Because if you are, you are way off base here. You aren't even remotely close to having a clue.

Her race Friday, she went 24.3, 48.4 and 112.2. Take a close look at EVERY start of hers prior to this last one, below.



Not in any single race did she go as slow as 24.3, except possibly the Oaks (the first 1/4 not shown).

Notice her half mile splits? Her slowest prior to the La Troienne was 47.4, a FULL SECOND faster that yesterdays race, and that came when she was a two year old, for crying out loud.

Take a look at her 3/4 splits. Friday she went 112.2.

The only time she went slower was her previous race! Again, she did not roll early, and she got beat.

Have you noticed yet, that by far her three most impressive wins last year, the Mother Goose, Preakness and Haskell, she set or pressed wicked fractions that are virtually unheard of by a horse in winning performances?

I can't even begin to understand how something so obvious eludes so many people.

Does this make any more sense to you now?

[Port Conway Lane]

Originally Posted by Indian Charlie

Are you really telling me that I should watch her past races?

Because if you are, you are way off base here. You aren't even remotely close to having a clue.

Her race Friday, she went 24.3, 48.4 and 112.2. Take a close look at EVERY start of hers prior to this last one, below.



Not in any single race did she go as slow as 24.3, except possibly the Oaks (the first 1/4 not shown).

Notice her half mile splits? Her slowest prior to the La Troienne was 47.4, a FULL SECOND faster that yesterdays race, and that came when she was a two year old, for crying out loud.

Take a look at her 3/4 splits. Friday she went 112.2.

The only time she went slower was her previous race! Again, she did not roll early, and she got beat.
Have you noticed yet, that by far her three most impressive wins last year, the Mother Goose, Preakness and Haskell, she set or pressed wicked fractions that are virtually unheard of by a horse in winning performances?

I can't even begin to understand how something so obvious eludes so many people.

Does this make any more sense to you now?

Who would have beat her if Unrivaled Belle was scratched ?

[Danzig]

Originally Posted by Indian Charlie

Be Fair is nothing.

Now, I'm not saying that the 48.4 half mile was the only reason she got beat, but man, why take away your greatest asset by running such a pedestrian half mile?

And, btw, there was no duel up front. Borel clearly rode RA to not get the lead (instructions or not). And why let other horses stay in the race when you can comfortably put them away by then?

ah, thanks. that's what i get for going by what was written!


but you're absolutely right-taking away her best ability makes absolutely no sense. i almost feel sorry for asmussen having to put up with that pompous owner with the bright ideas.





almost

Originally Posted by philcski

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p7w64...eature=related

[JBJake]

Maybe RA isn't as good as people thought? A 3 horse field in the Mother Goose, slop at Monmouth and the 2 monsters Macho Again and Mine That Bird were her last 4 dominating performances. To blame Borel who had her on the lead in a 48 and 4 first half seems insane. If she went 46 and change - when she gets caught it would have also been his fault. If she was the type of horse that people have claimed she is - why does she need an absolutely perfect set up?

[knickslions2]

Originally Posted by JBJake

Maybe RA isn't as good as people thought? A 3 horse field in the Mother Goose, slop at Monmouth and the 2 monsters Macho Again and Mine That Bird were her last 4 dominating performances. To blame Borel who had her on the lead in a 48 and 4 first half seems insane. If she went 46 and change - when she gets caught it would have also been his fault. If she was the type of horse that people have claimed she is - why does she need an absolutely perfect set up?

She looked cooked after the woodward. That race took lots out of her.

[Sightseek]

Originally Posted by miraja2

For me it goes like this, the results of the races this year point to the fact that when scribes are making their lists of the top 100 horses of the 21st century (at some point in the distant future) Zenyatta thus far deserves to be ranked higher than Rachel. Her ability to carry her top form from one year to the next is worthy of a lot of credit. A lot of horses - including, it would appear, RA - are simply unable to do that. Zenyatta has also demonstrated real ability on multiple surfaces over her career as a racehorse. For her career full of achievements she deserves - in my opinion - the higher overall regard. Congrats to Zenyatta and her swarms of fans (who bizarrely seem to live vicariously through her) on this achievement.

For me, that remains an entirely different question than the one of who deserved HOY last year. In my mind that was unquestionably Rachel Alexandra, and I don't see how that fact is in any way discredited by today's race, or by anything I wrote in the first paragraph.

[johnny pinwheel]

Originally Posted by JBJake

Maybe RA isn't as good as people thought? A 3 horse field in the Mother Goose, slop at Monmouth and the 2 monsters Macho Again and Mine That Bird were her last 4 dominating performances. To blame Borel who had her on the lead in a 48 and 4 first half seems insane. If she went 46 and change - when she gets caught it would have also been his fault. If she was the type of horse that people have claimed she is - why does she need an absolutely perfect set up?

you hit the nail on the head. her best race was the preakness, she loves the mud so the haskell was a given.(summerbird is a 10 furlong horse) she wanted no part of the travers at 10 furlongs and ran against bullsbay and macho again who proved the ability they have with yet another crummy effort yesterday. she was dressed up in almost every race but the preakness. yeah, she had a good run but these people that made her some sort of super horse have to face reality this year. it was not that hard to see this coming. shes a good horse but shes no zenyatta.

[dalakhani]

Originally Posted by Indian Charlie

Not well said at all.

Unless you mean he was grammatically correct.

If you don't understand how taking away the speed from a high quality and brilliantly fast horse is a poor tactic, than there really is no way for it to be explained to you.

Go and watch a few thousand more races, and watch what happens to horses like, say, Bertrando, when the jock doesn't let them roll.

And just because he wasn't fighting her doesn't mean he was not compromising her chances of winning.

So he was supposed to hustle her up? He let her do her thing.

This isn't some 50k claimer and prior to the last two races, Rachel was certainly held in higher regard than Bertrando (certainly no knock on that horse). This is Rachel Alexandra...reigning HOY...the next coming of Ruffian. She got eyeballed in the lane. Pure and simple. And you are blaming the jock for not rushing her through faster fractions on a track that was playing against speed all day?

[Indian Charlie]

Originally Posted by dalakhani

So he was supposed to hustle her up? He let her do her thing.

This isn't some 50k claimer and prior to the last two races, Rachel was certainly held in higher regard than Bertrando (certainly no knock on that horse). This is Rachel Alexandra...reigning HOY...the next coming of Ruffian. She got eyeballed in the lane. Pure and simple. And you are blaming the jock for not rushing her through faster fractions on a track that was playing against speed all day?

I don't know why English is such a hard language for people.

This is a filly that when setting very fast fractions, ran her opposition off of their feet. Any horse within a short distance of her on the turn usually ended up at the back of the pack, while at the same time, most closers really couldn't make up much ground on her.

What I'm trying to say is that that running style is what suits her best. She may or may not be at the same quality level she was last year, but until she's allowed to run the type of race that made her so great last year, we'll never really know why she's lost twice this year already.

And I never said to 'hustle' her. Or, as you say, just let her do her thing. Something that you are very wrong about. If you saw any of her races last year, it should be really obvious that her thing is to go fast early and keep going. Do you think 48.4 is a good example of that?

[dalakhani]

Originally Posted by Indian Charlie

I don't know why English is such a hard language for people.

This is a filly that when setting very fast fractions, ran her opposition off of their feet. Any horse within a short distance of her on the turn usually ended up at the back of the pack, while at the same time, most closers really couldn't make up much ground on her.

What I'm trying to say is that that running style is what suits her best. She may or may not be at the same quality level she was last year, but until she's allowed to run the type of race that made her so great last year, we'll never really know why she's lost twice this year already.

And I never said to 'hustle' her. Just let her do her thing.

You may have a point. I'm anxious to see them use those tactics next out. Cheers.

[Left Bank]

I strongly feel we will see a different rider next time.I think Calvin did nothing wrong,I just think Dickhead(Jackson) will switch,since he thinks he knows everything.

Originally Posted by Left Bank

I strongly feel we will see a different rider next time.I think Calvin did nothing wrong,I just think Dickhead(Jackson) will switch,since he thinks he knows everything.

That would be a public relations nightmare and the bonehead move of the year. Calvin put on an absolute clinic today and now the media is focused on him.

It's not like the main track was a conveyor belt the past two days.

[Merlinsky]

Would it be accurate to call Jess the Jerry Jones of horse racing? Or is one worse than the other? If that settling idea is Jess', I'm betting it has to do with thinking that'll be necessary against Zenyatta at 1 1/4. If you go and confuse or sour your filly, she's got bigger problems than conserving energy for that particular stretch battle. I really don't know that I'd put all my money on outkicking Zenyatta in a gut check down the lane. If she's gotten that close to you, you're screwed already. She's 17 hands with a massive stride, and that momentum's a killer. There's no point in doing an eyeball to eyeball duel.

[Indian Charlie]

Originally Posted by sammy

get a grip. i see at least six 47 second splits in her line and she won all but one of those races.

just another monday morning handicapper who thinks he knows everything.

Ya see, people like you are what makes me think the human race is mostly retarded.

Are you really equating 47.2s and 47.3's as a 2yo and early 3yo to 48.4 as a 4yo?

You don't think 47.2 very early as a 3yo isn't a ton faster than 48.4 now???

I mean, seriously. WTF?

You really aren't that dumb, are you?

[letswastemoney]

So it would be like how Hard Spun was affected in the 2007 Belmont because Gomez didn't let him roll, despite the fractions being very slow from what I remember.

[Smooth Operator]

Originally Posted by johnny pinwheel

you hit the nail on the head. her best race was the preakness, she loves the mud so the haskell was a given.(summerbird is a 10 furlong horse) she wanted no part of the travers at 10 furlongs and ran against bullsbay and macho again who proved the ability they have with yet another crummy effort yesterday. she was dressed up in almost every race but the preakness. yeah, she had a good run but these people that made her some sort of super horse have to face reality this year. it was not that hard to see this coming. shes a good horse but shes no zenyatta.

Fine work there, johnny

You too, JBJake


Just a GD SHAME that she was SO OVER-HYPED by the media last year that it cost a truly great mare the award she deserved…

[outofthebox]

Im Glad they did not retire Affirmed after he lost 4 in a row. And take away his HOY award when he was beaten by a better horse Seattle Slew twice. Affirmed was HOY, Slew the better horse big deal. Rachel was HOY last year, Zenyatta the better horse..Big deal. I have no problem thinking Zenyatta is the better of the two, i do have a problem thinking she had the best year of anyone last year. Like i said earlier, i hope there is no retirement in the plans. Affirmed lost to a cal bred sprinter (Little Reb) and an arizona bred (Radar Ahead) to start off his 4yo campain. Thank god their connections did not give up on him.keep Rachel running!

[Smooth Operator]

Aff did something very special in '78, outofthebox.

RA beat SB (in his prep race for the Travers) … and MA in the Woodward … barely.

Nuff said

[philcski]

I hate to resurrect this thread, but I just watched the replay again and Rachel is racing in a figure-8 noseband (they're used, among other things, to reduce pulling by a horse) and was in the New Orleans as well. Not sure why Asmussen would make this significant of a change, if it ain't broke, don't fix it.