Discreet Cat earns 115 Beyer Speed Figure

[kentuckyrosesinmay]

Because its so slow around here that there isn't much to talk about...

Maybe we need another thread about Discreet Cat to improve the overall ambiance of the forum.

[kentuckyrosesinmay]

I know, we could title it "THE SHEIKS RULE". That would get people talking. Of course, whoever posted the thread would probably get called every name in the book...LOL.

Originally Posted by Cunningham Racing

It is funny you say Bernardini and talk mechanics without rementioning his name because that is one of his strengths...he is a monster of an animal that moves IMPECCABLY...he moves like a cat and his hooves never appear to be on the ground for very long duirng his natural gait...If you can't see the superior athleticism that he possesses than I'm sorry about that because it is VERY evident judging by the way he carries himself, the way he moves, his beautiful pedigree and physique, his disposition and classy features and look that he is a champion to me...very clear he is something special and I don't throw that word around a lot in this game....you always look for something to knock in a horse and he has nothing...none, nada....or at least i haven't found anything looking at him with high scrutiny....I evaluate the upper echelon of horses by the number of weaknesses i percieve that they have, and he is the only horse I've ever seen that has none in my book...he rates out a 10 on my scale....he is as close to perfect as you'll ever see in a horse..

I believe he is the best horse we've had in our game the last 25 years...I really do...and when I say 'best horse' I mean that in a veryb thorough way...I look at him physically, how talented he is, his pedigree and what he will offer in the breeding sheds, etc.....the full cycle of how he could impact our sport....and I've come to the conclusion that there has been no better in my lifetime.....he is horse that could change our industry....100% impactful on and off the track in the breeding sheds...these don't come along but maybe once every 20-30 years....I know thats high praise and may will highly disagree, but I've been saying this since May and it is funny how everytime he cruises that I get less and less people disagreeing with me ....

BTW, the Shieks have convictions that run deeper than trying to win a race IMO...I just don't see them as being the character of people to feel like they have to cheat...I just don't...t makes no sense at all....They cut people's hands off over there whe you steal...I just cannot see it....those people over there have a MUCH stricter civil code and value system than Americans do on average....just saying...

Also, they love when the American's come to World Cup day..Why would they jeopardize that? Money is never an issue with them, and if cheating did happen there, I would bet aboyut anything that the high-ups had NO knowledge of it.....think about it...

I see you see his pedigree. Clouds the eye.
When I talk Mineshaft I saw a horse that WHEN challenged dug in, held form, did not change lines, head stayed low, he did not start to run upright when he got tired. Nothing changed in the turn of foot. I watch the replay when weighted down against Perfect Drift. Fantastic runner in my eye. The late great LITF covered enormous amounts of ground while staying relatively low. This is the form I covet. Bernardini looks fantastic when running with no exhaustion evident. What does his form look like when he is tired? How does he hold form when stretched to the limit? Does anything change, and if so what? Does his exhausted form still maintain its basic form with a little less turn of foot? Answer this? I cant, I have not seen him tired. NOT CHALLENGED.

[Cajungator26]

Originally Posted by pgardn

I see you see his pedigree. Clouds the eye.
When I talk Mineshaft I saw a horse that WHEN challenged dug in, held form, did not change lines, head stayed low, he did not start to run upright when he got tired. Nothing changed in the turn of foot. I watch the replay when weighted down against Perfect Drift. Fantastic runner in my eye. The late great LITF covered enormous amounts of ground while staying relatively low. This is the form I covet. Bernardini looks fantastic when running with no exhaustion evident. What does his form look like when he is tired? How does he hold form when stretched to the limit? Does anything change, and if so what? Does his exhausted form still maintain its basic form with a little less turn of foot? Answer this? I cant, I have not seen him tired. NOT CHALLENGED.

I loved Foggy's form... Deep Impact also runs low.

[SentToStud]

Originally Posted by blackthroatedwind

I wouldn't root for horses that Hitler owned no matter how good they were....but that's just me. Maybe I only feel that way because it's Yom Kippur....but I doubt it.

By the way, not the analogy I would have made when defending my love of Godolphin.

Ah, so we see clearer now.

Maybe you'll feel differently the day after Yom Kippur ... but I doubt it.

So some Arabs have some nice horses. What's wrong with that? So they spend a lot of money? What's wrong with that?

Lots of horse racing industry people will hate the Arab horse owners for one simple reason.

Now that they are having success with their North American runners, we're seeing the sentiment tossed their way change from ridicule to to something even less attractive.

Personally, I wish them good luck. They have some nice ones, they got a triple crown race win and I look for their horses to do well the rest of the year.

Signed,
Unpaid Godolphin Shill

[DiscreetCat=Monster]

Lava who??????

Originally Posted by DiscreetCat=Monster

Lava who??????

THis animal has been challenged. I love this horse. But I dont know about him traveling. Seems to have trouble. But this is the horse I would like to see win the BCC. But JC could not stand to have a former claimer win an event of this magnitude. Got to have that blue blood.

[bogeydaman]

Originally Posted by pgardn

I see you see his pedigree. Clouds the eye.
When I talk Mineshaft I saw a horse that WHEN challenged dug in, held form, did not change lines, head stayed low, he did not start to run upright when he got tired. Nothing changed in the turn of foot. I watch the replay when weighted down against Perfect Drift. Fantastic runner in my eye. The late great LITF covered enormous amounts of ground while staying relatively low. This is the form I covet. Bernardini looks fantastic when running with no exhaustion evident. What does his form look like when he is tired? How does he hold form when stretched to the limit? Does anything change, and if so what? Does his exhausted form still maintain its basic form with a little less turn of foot? Answer this? I cant, I have not seen him tired. NOT CHALLENGED.

And......... after he wins the JCGG and the BCC by open lengths and not challenged (IMO) this will still not be answered. After all there was a post last week how weak the top 10 was for 3yr olds and up. I can hear the excuses now for why Bernadini wins the Classic so easily (Invasor ran but not recovered and / or not that good, everyone knows Lava Man can't run outside the West Coast, None of the Euro's took to the dirt, such and such had a horrible ride, did not take to the CD track, etc, etc, etc.). So, if and when Bernardini runs away from these next 2 fields, does he "get his due" as a great horse or a horse that is running against both a week 3 year old class (which I don't agree with) as well as 3+ class (after beating olders 2x)? Lets face it there is no Ghostzappers, St. Liams, etc out there this year.

Originally Posted by bogeydaman

And......... after he wins the JCGG and the BCC by open lengths and not challenged (IMO) this will still not be answered. After all there was a post last week how weak the top 10 was for 3yr olds and up. I can hear the excuses now for why Bernadini wins the Classic so easily (Invasor ran but not recovered and / or not that good, everyone knows Lava Man can't run outside the West Coast, None of the Euro's took to the dirt, such and such had a horrible ride, did not take to the CD track, etc, etc, etc.). So, if and when Bernardini runs away from these next 2 fields, does he "get his due" as a great horse or a horse that is running against both a week 3 year old class (which I don't agree with) as well as 3+ class (after beating olders 2x)? Lets face it there is no Ghostzappers, St. Liams, etc out there this year.

And this of course is exactly what many people would like to see happen. Unchallenged then off to the shed unblemished.

[blackthroatedwind]

Originally Posted by SentToStud

Ah, so we see clearer now.

Maybe you'll feel differently the day after Yom Kippur ... but I doubt it.

So some Arabs have some nice horses. What's wrong with that? So they spend a lot of money? What's wrong with that?

Lots of horse racing industry people will hate the Arab horse owners for one simple reason.

Now that they are having success with their North American runners, we're seeing the sentiment tossed their way change from ridicule to to something even less attractive.

Personally, I wish them good luck. They have some nice ones, they got a triple crown race win and I look for their horses to do well the rest of the year.

Signed,
Unpaid Godolphin Shill

Not sure what you're getting at.

I don't dislike Godolphin because they're Arabs ( I dislike Hitler because he was responsible for the mass murder of millions of Jews among other atrocities but that has nothing to do with Godolphin ). I dislike them because I believe they have had a detrimental affect on major racing in America.

They have every right to have operated as they have but I simply don't see them as a friend of American racing. Perhaps that will change, and it does seem we are seeing a few more of their horses, but they have done a lot of damage over the last twenty years.

[bogeydaman]

Originally Posted by pgardn

And this of course is exactly what many people would like to see happen. Unchallenged then off to the shed unblemished.

Not sure who these "people" you are referring to, but they are certainly not the majority of the board / fans. I don't get a chance to read all of the posts on this board, but I surely have not seen any that says I can't wait till xxxx horse retires??? Everything I read is about the desire for these horses to keep running?

Now if you are referring to the owners and those that would want to purchase his offspring then I agree. This horse is probably worth 25X (there are others on the board that would know this number better than me) its value in the shed than racing. Who can blame them? I don't if I was in their shoes (then again money is no object for them).

Originally Posted by pgardn

I see you see his pedigree. Clouds the eye.
When I talk Mineshaft I saw a horse that WHEN challenged dug in, held form, did not change lines, head stayed low, he did not start to run upright when he got tired. Nothing changed in the turn of foot. I watch the replay when weighted down against Perfect Drift. Fantastic runner in my eye. The late great LITF covered enormous amounts of ground while staying relatively low. This is the form I covet. Bernardini looks fantastic when running with no exhaustion evident. What does his form look like when he is tired? How does he hold form when stretched to the limit? Does anything change, and if so what? Does his exhausted form still maintain its basic form with a little less turn of foot? Answer this? I cant, I have not seen him tired. NOT CHALLENGED.

A) The head stayed low is a trait of most A.P. Indys...the good and the bad ones....A.P. Indy himself was what we call a "rooter", or a horse that carries his head extremely low when in full stride....MANY A.P. Indys do this, even the bad ones...trust me on this...

B) Mineshaft was not as precocious as Bernardini and he just wasn't as good as him either...period...I'm sorry for those who disagree but I'm supremely confident we'll all see this to be true by the time Bernardini retires....i know them both VERY well, especially Mineshaft through Robby Albarado and Neil Howard and my days at Fair Grounds....trust me...I've put my hands on the horse many times...Bernardini is in another league...he just is...

C) Mineshaft's pedigree was comparable to Bernardini's but that is all IMO...he is not near the physical specimen, nor near the athlete...sorry, Bernardini is just more superior in several categories that it would take me longer to explain than its worth typing...

D) Also, Mieshaft has been a disappointment at sire as far as how his babies look in relation to the book of mares he got...Vindication and Empire Maker - fellow first crop sires - blew him out of the water in the sales arena....Bernardini has the chance to be a better stallion than his sire IMO...

E) LITF had one of the best bio-meshanics systems as long as that could be sophisticatedly measured....it was scientifically proven that LITF had hardly any wasted motion...all of his energy was positively moving forward and in an efficient, momentum and ryhtmicly generated motion.....he had very little wasted motion....Bernardini's stride is just as good or better IMO because he is so athletic that his feet don't appear to remain on the ground as much as LITF...An example of horrible action and severe wasted motion is Discreet Cat - but look how good he is with all of that extra, wasted motion...BTW, Mineshaft didn't move half as nicely as Bernardini does...

F) Bernardini has handled everything to this point with the upmost class and with immense ability....What makes you think he doesn't have the class to dig in and be a competitor when challenged? I would bet anything that he has the heart of Tiznow...he is a consumate pro in too many areas for me to believe otherwise....Plus, why fault the horse because he hasn't been challenged in the stretch yet? That just goes to show you how much better he is than the other horses...Any horse that can win a Classic race by open lengths as easy as he did IN JUST HIS 4th LIFETIME START is nothing short of special....He has won 4 straight graded stakes and 2 Grade 1s - ALL BY OPENS LENGTHS AND WITH IMMENSE EASE....Is that his fault? What more do you want him to do? Would you like him to slow down and let them catch him in mid-stretch before he starts to try?...comon man...

Originally Posted by bogeydaman

Not sure who these "people" you are referring to, but they are certainly not the majority of the board / fans. I don't get a chance to read all of the posts on this board, but I surely have not seen any that says I can't wait till xxxx horse retires??? Everything I read is about the desire for these horses to keep running?

Now if you are referring to the owners and those that would want to purchase his offspring then I agree. This horse is probably worth 25X (there are others on the board that would know this number better than me) its value in the shed than racing. Who can blame them? I don't if I was in their shoes (then again money is no object for them).

If the horse retires undefeated then one might be able to claim they got to see Colin or Personal Ensign. I like to see horses have to work for some of their victories. Not the horses fault though. I think the BCC will be a suprise for this horse. I get the field, who takes Bernardini in the BCC?

By the way, disliking Goldolphin and the other Shieks because of how rich they are doesn't make sense to me....Nearly every poster on this board cannot relate to 99% of the owners in this industry as far as where they are on the economic scale, so who cares how rich the Shiek is? Jess Jackson, Jack Wolf, Mrs. Robsham, Mrs. Lewis, Ahmad Zayat...I could go on for 20 thread worth of names are ALL rich....when does rich become 'too rich'....I don't fell sorry for any of these millionaires.....just because Godolphin is wealthier than the rest of the rich crowd of Thoroughbred horse owners, why hate? He also puts up fifty times the risk that all other owners do....Remember this, horse raicng is a NON PROFITABLE business for 99% of owners and anybody else saying otherwords is just plain lying through their teeth...

If they wanted to take their ball and go home then it would adversly impact our industry by hundreds of millions a year - a negative impact our industry could not afford...many small breeders would go out of business if this happened...thats just a fact...why hate our game's biggest investor?

I think most people hate them because they percieve they are directly resposible for the fact that when they go to the pumps they have to fork up $3/gallon to put into their old Honda Civic when they know how rich the Shieks are...I think that is the root of 90% of the anomosity - of course that is just my opinion......the bottomline is that most owners in this game live in the top .5% of the economic ladder....whats rooting for the 'little' guy who is ONLY worth a few million instead of the Shieks as the enemies because they are worth $100 billion???...Rich is rich to me....it is a rare enough class...

[DiscreetCat=Monster]

"Garrett Gomez looking all over 4 the competion"


Durkin

[DiscreetCat=Monster]

Tell em Cunningham all those people can basically retire after pinhookin 1 horse that the Sheik wants. Seems like he does more for America than the people that are B I T C H I N about him and his money.

[blackthroatedwind]

I don't have any personal animus against the Sheik for anything other than what I perceive to have been his detrimental effect on American racing....period. I suppose if I dug deeper, or was less superficial, I could probably find other things to dislike, but this is not my concern at the current level. He is simply, as I see it, the enemy of American racing...or certainly has been.

Now, as far as suggesting they has risked a great deal more than the other rich people you brought up, well yes and really NO. Yes, the dollars they have put into the game are far greater but as a percentage of their net worth, the Arabs haven't come close to investing what the others you brought up. And, considering the vast wealth of the Arabs involved in the game, they have WAY more money left over should they lose every cent they put in the game than the others you brought up. So, in essense, their financial risk is ZERO.

The bottom line is they have contributed one thing, and really one thing only to this business in America, and that is dollars. They have enriched breeders and owners alike. But, what they have also done, is exported our finest bloodlines, and given us very little back in the way of sportsmanship in return. As I said before, they can do as they like, but I don't have to like it. I'm a horseplayer, and a racing fan, and I gain nothing from the bloodstock business.

[Sightseek]

Originally Posted by Cunningham Racing

A) The head stayed low is a trait of most A.P. Indys...the good and the bad ones....A.P. Indy himself was what we call a "rooter", or a horse that carries his head extremely low when in full stride....MANY A.P. Indys do this, even the bad ones...trust me on this...

B) Mineshaft was not as precocious as Bernardini and he just wasn't as good as him either...period...I'm sorry for those who disagree but I'm supremely confident we'll all see this to be true by the time Bernardini retires....i know them both VERY well, especially Mineshaft through Robby Albarado and Neil Howard and my days at Fair Grounds....trust me...I've put my hands on the horse many times...Bernardini is in another league...he just is...

C) Mineshaft's pedigree was comparable to Bernardini's but that is all IMO...he is not near the physical specimen, nor near the athlete...sorry, Bernardini is just more superior in several categories that it would take me longer to explain than its worth typing...

D) Also, Mieshaft has been a disappointment at sire as far as how his babies look in relation to the book of mares he got...Vindication and Empire Maker - fellow first crop sires - blew him out of the water in the sales arena....Bernardini has the chance to be a better stallion than his sire IMO...

E) LITF had one of the best bio-meshanics systems as long as that could be sophisticatedly measured....it was scientifically proven that LITF had hardly any wasted motion...all of his energy was positively moving forward and in an efficient, momentum and ryhtmicly generated motion.....he had very little wasted motion....Bernardini's stride is just as good or better IMO because he is so athletic that his feet don't appear to remain on the ground as much as LITF...An example of horrible action and severe wasted motion is Discreet Cat - but look how good he is with all of that extra, wasted motion...BTW, Mineshaft didn't move half as nicely as Bernardini does...

F) Bernardini has handled everything to this point with the upmost class and with immense ability....What makes you think he doesn't have the class to dig in and be a competitor when challenged? I would bet anything that he has the heart of Tiznow...he is a consumate pro in too many areas for me to believe otherwise....Plus, why fault the horse because he hasn't been challenged in the stretch yet? That just goes to show you how much better he is than the other horses...Any horse that can win a Classic race by open lengths as easy as he did IN JUST HIS 4th LIFETIME START is nothing short of special....He has won 4 straight graded stakes and 2 Grade 1s - ALL BY OPENS LENGTHS AND WITH IMMENSE EASE....Is that his fault? What more do you want him to do? Would you like him to slow down and let them catch him in mid-stretch before he starts to try?...comon man...

My apologies for going off topic, but what did you think of Barbaro's stride?

Also, on a side note, I don't think you have to be the richest of the rich to get the best yearling...as the recent study on the high priced Storm Cat's who have sold at Keeneland indicated, racing success can be achieved by the better eye, not always the better wallet. Of course, for horses in training, having the bigger wallet to make huge offers is very good too.

Originally Posted by blackthroatedwind

I don't have any personal animus against the Sheik for anything other than what I perceive to have been his detrimental effect on American racing....period. I suppose if I dug deeper, or was less superficial, I could probably find other things to dislike, but this is not my concern at the current level. He is simply, as I see it, the enemy of American racing...or certainly has been.

Now, as far as suggesting they has risked a great deal more than the other rich people you brought up, well yes and really NO. Yes, the dollars they have put into the game are far greater but as a percentage of their net worth, the Arabs haven't come close to investing what the others you brought up. And, considering the vast wealth of the Arabs involved in the game, they have WAY more money left over should they lose every cent they put in the game than the others you brought up. So, in essense, their financial risk is ZERO.

The bottom line is they have contributed one thing, and really one thing only to this business in America, and that is dollars. They have enriched breeders and owners alike. But, what they have also done, is exported our finest bloodlines, and given us very little back in the way of sportsmanship in return. As I said before, they can do as they like, but I don't have to like it. I'm a horseplayer, and a racing fan, and I gain nothing from the bloodstock business.

I respectably disagree, BTW...I tried to type in length why I disagree based on their economic impact but make post timed out when I tried to post it......