Cigar was the best horse in the last 30 years

[The Indomitable DrugS]

Well - that's because of the Breeders Cup I would think.

Still, Frankel had to have been a good trainer in 1970 to win a share of the training title there.

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by The Indomitable DrugS

Well - that's because of the Breeders Cup I would think.

Still, Frankel had to have been a good trainer in 1970 to win a share of the training title there.

Who said that Frankel wasn't a good trainer?

[The Indomitable DrugS]

I'm not posting under the moniker RAGS right now dude - I know you think he's a good trainer.


My point was - he was probably an outstanding trainer in 1970 as well - on the basis of the fact that he won a share of the Saratoga training title.


And that you might have left him out when you said....

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

As a sidebar, let me add that there is really only one trainer from the 60's-70's who is still training and doing well.

Bruce Headley might be another guy - but neither was even close to being as accomplished as Jerkens was back during that time.

[philcski]

Originally Posted by pmayjr

I'm too new to know for sure. But I'm wondering if I'll ever see one better than Ghostzapper.

I don't know if you ever will. Thanks to Sightseek (and presumably Kiris Clown for posting it, I finally got to see the replay of the race that made me dance in the Belmont grandstand: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MSo-MRDbQ1k

Let's review, for a minute, who he beat in his last three races.
Woodward:
Saint Liam- HOTY, BCC winner, 5 time GSW (4 G1's)
Bowman's Band- G2 winner, 12 time GS placed
Newfoundland- multiple GSW/GSP
Seek Gold- G1 winner
Midway Road- multiple GSW, track recordholder at Keeneland 9F
Presidentialaffair- multiple GSW, track recordholder at Monmouth

BC Classic (maybe the best field ever assembled for the race):
Roses in May- multiple GSW, Dubai World Cup, etc.
Pleasantly Perfect- BCC winner, Dubai World Cup, 6 G1/G2 wins
Perfect Drift- 7x GSW, 22x GSP
Azeri- Champion female 3x, HOTY, 13x GSW (11 G1's)
Personal Rush- how did he finish 6th?!? but a champion in Japan
Birdstone- '03 Champagne, '04 Belmont, '04 Travers winner
Dynever- multiple G3 winner
Fantasticat- '04 Super Derby winner
Funny Cide- Derby, Preakness, '04 JCGC winner, et al. 5x GSW
Bowman's Band- see above
Newfoundland- see above
Freefourinternet- 4x G2 winner (believe it or not)

Met Mile:
Silver Wagon- 4x GSW, 2x G1 winner
Forest Danger- G1 winner
Pomeroy- 2x G1 winner, multiple GSW
Sir Shackelton- 3x GSW
Love of Money- G2 winner

[SniperSB23]

Originally Posted by philcski

I don't know if you ever will. Thanks to Sightseek (and presumably Kiris Clown for posting it, I finally got to see the replay of the race that made me dance in the Belmont grandstand: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MSo-MRDbQ1k

Let's review, for a minute, who he beat in his last three races.
Woodward:
Saint Liam- HOTY, BCC winner, 5 time GSW (4 G1's)
Bowman's Band- G2 winner, 12 time GS placed
Newfoundland- multiple GSW/GSP
Seek Gold- G1 winner
Midway Road- multiple GSW, track recordholder at Keeneland 9F
Presidentialaffair- multiple GSW, track recordholder at Monmouth

BC Classic (maybe the best field ever assembled for the race):
Roses in May- multiple GSW, Dubai World Cup, etc.
Pleasantly Perfect- BCC winner, Dubai World Cup, 6 G1/G2 wins
Perfect Drift- 7x GSW, 22x GSP
Azeri- Champion female 3x, HOTY, 13x GSW (11 G1's)
Personal Rush- how did he finish 6th?!? but a champion in Japan
Birdstone- '03 Champagne, '04 Belmont, '04 Travers winner
Dynever- multiple G3 winner
Fantasticat- '04 Super Derby winner
Funny Cide- Derby, Preakness, '04 JCGC winner, et al. 5x GSW
Bowman's Band- see above
Newfoundland- see above
Freefourinternet- 4x G2 winner (believe it or not)

Met Mile:
Silver Wagon- 4x GSW, 2x G1 winner
Forest Danger- G1 winner
Pomeroy- 2x G1 winner, multiple GSW
Sir Shackelton- 3x GSW
Love of Money- G2 winner

Let's not get carried away, he beat 3 very nice horses and one great filly who wasn't quite in his league. Half the low level stakes horses around have beaten Seek Gold and Perfect Drift (and a lot of the other horses you've mentioned). I really don't think they add to his legacy. His legacy is his amazing speed figures, not who he beat and what they accomplished at various points in their careers.

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by The Indomitable DrugS

I'm not posting under the moniker RAGS right now dude - I know you think he's a good trainer.


My point was - he was probably an outstanding trainer in 1970 as well - on the basis of the fact that he won a share of the Saratoga training title.


And that you might have left him out when you said....



Bruce Headley might be another guy - but neither was even close to being as accomplished as Jerkens was back during that time.

I forgot Frankel mainly because he has been a West Coast trainer until recent years. I never considered Bruce Headly as a big trainer. And Polytrack may be the end of him.

[The Indomitable DrugS]

They would have for sure. However, I doubt either would have done so as stylishly as GZ did.

[Sightseek]

Originally Posted by The Indomitable DrugS

They would have for sure. However, I doubt either would have done so as stylishly as GZ did.

[The Indomitable DrugS]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

And Polytrack may be the end of him.

It funny that a guy who's supposedly had just one fatal breakdown on the racetrack in forty years is the guy having the toughest go of it with the synthetics out West.

[SniperSB23]

Originally Posted by The Indomitable DrugS

They would have for sure. However, I doubt either would have done so as stylishly as GZ did.

All comes down to your preference. Cigar could have taken them on every four weeks for six months straight and beat them. Ghostzapper couldn't have done that but would have beat them more impressively than Cigar could when he could actually race. Not really fair to compare the two, both should just be appreciated for what they could do.

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by The Indomitable DrugS

It funny that a guy who's supposedly had just one fatal breakdown on the racetrack in forty years is the guy having the toughest go of it with the synthetics out West.

How can they breakdown if they never run? He makes Angel Penna look like a trotting horse trainer.

[Swap Fliparoo]

Originally Posted by philcski

I don't know if you ever will. Thanks to Sightseek (and presumably Kiris Clown for posting it, I finally got to see the replay of the race that made me dance in the Belmont grandstand: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MSo-MRDbQ1k

Thanks for putting up the link, i finally got to see it!!

[Danzig]

Originally Posted by ELA

I believe that the "medication" or "drug" topic often becomes the scapegoat of the many ills. Not there is not a drug or medication problem, however it's not the exclusive problematic factor that some make it out to be.

One item that I think is often overlooked beyond the superficial discussions is the "breed" itself. Talk to an expert on breeding and pedigree -- someone like a Bob Fox. The gene pool has been diluted over the course of years, due to a variety of reasons. One could argue Tesio theories all day long, inbred this and outcross that, and so on. However, just by looking at the what has happened in the breeding industry, we can see what has happened to the breed.

There are exceptions to rules and rules that are exceptions, however, I think those that argue that the breed, genetically, has not suffered, are turning a blind eye and a deaf ear to certain realities.

Eric

but tesios main rule was breed the best to the best, and hope for the best. that's not the rule any longer--people are no longer trying to improve the breed, they're trying to improve their bottom line. THAT is the biggest problem facing the sport. it used to be that breeders raced their horses, to show they knew what they were doing. that they had taken a good thing, and made it better. not many of them left.

[philcski]

Originally Posted by DaHoss9698

I have to say, I think that Cigar would have beat those fields as well.
Holy Bull definitely would have.

Cigar wouldn't have won that Classic IMO, Roses in May and Pleasantly Perfect would have knocked him off. Holy Bull... now that's another story. I wish he were doing better at stud because we need more outcrosses.

Trust me, I really loved Holy Bull, but in a head to head matchup I'd still take Ghostzapper.

I brought up those fields because I'm tired of hearing how weak they were. Every single runner was a GSW at some point in their career, how much more can you ask for? They looked weak because he destroyed them. For example, remember how good Forest Danger was? Humiliated him.

[philcski]

Originally Posted by DaHoss9698

I think you might be overrating Pleasantly Perfect a bit and Forest Danger. Just my opinion. Ghostzapper did run faster figures than Holy Bull. But while you bring up that Classic, which was a bit weak IMO. look at the fields Holy Bull crushed in May of his 3 year old year and then later in September.

Met Mile-
Devil His Due- Multiple GSW including Wood Memorial, Gulfstream Park Handicap, Pimlico Special and Suburban.
Cherokee Run- Multiple GSW and Champion sprinter of 1994. Won BC Sprint.
Tinners Way- Multiple GSW including Californian and Pacific Classic (twice).
Colonial Affair-Mutiple GSW and Classic winner. Won Belmont, Whitney and Jockey Club Gold Cup.
Virginia Rapids- Multiple GSW, including Peter Pan, Tom Fool and Carter
American Chance- Multiple GSW including Jersey Derby and Forego
West By West- Multiple GSW
Federal Funds

Woodward-
Devil His Due, Colonial Affair and Tinners Way- see above
Go For Gin- Multiple GSW, classic winner. Including Kentucky Derby, Remsen
Bertrando- Multiple GSW, Champion Older Male of 1993. Wins include Del Mar Futurity, Norfolk, San Felipe, Pacific Classic, Woodward.
Brunswick- Won gr. 1 Whitney in 1993
Pistols and Roses- Multiple GSW including Bluegrass and Donn (twice)

Pretty comparable fields I think.

That Met Mile field was awesome, would never argue that, and the performance was better than awesome. I was there that day... 3YO's aren't supposed to do that.

[Holland Hacker]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

Drugs are an easy copout for the entire industry. Very easy for the breeders to blame as it takes the focus off of them. Easy for the fans to blame them because there is much more awareness of what is going on nowdays. But the fact is that things were not a whole lot different then and now in terms of medicating horses. What has changed is that the sales arena became the most powerful economic factor in the late 70's about the time we started breeding a whole lot more horses than we used to. The eventual bust of the market brought the numbers back to realistic numbers but the damage to the breed was done.

Drugs, legal or otherwise, have virtually nothing to do with the genetic makeup of horses. The fact that some horses may have competeted at a higher level because of them means squat in terms of producing horses. Some of the best horses of our generation like Alysheba and Coronado's Quest (neither who would be considered to be "juice" horses) got tremendous books of mares yet were absolute busts at stud.

What I do think has led to the "softness" of modern day horses is the proliferation of the blood of Mr. Prospector, Storm Cat, and Danzig. Danzig broke down after 3 starts, Storm Cat was not effective past 2 and Mr. Prospector was strictly a 6 furlong horse. Think about that for a minute and ask yourself why modern day horses who are filled with the blood of those 3 should be durable distance horses? Take a look at the upcoming Keeneland sale and see how many hips you can go without seeing one of those 3 in the pedigree? Consider that on the female side, virtually no filly's with any breeding at all, are not bred despite horrible conformation or other issues. We just correct the foals artificially with surgeries and pass them off as new.

Now days you have to take into consideration that graded stake horses are treated as assets instead of racehorses. The reason that this practice is allowed is because the power breeders don't insist on a deep race record as a requirement. As long as a horse has a good pedigree and he has knocked off a couple of big races, he is a prime stallion option. Being that the stud books are in the 100's, the farms that stand stallions don't have to be right nearly as much as the 1st few years of stud fees easily cover the price of the horse.

What it really comes down to in this day and age is like most other areas of our society. It is a numbers game and money is the greatest motivator, even over ego. I hate the way the game is played now but being I make a living at it I have to deal with it. It is hard to blame the trainers of the big horses as they are under a lot of pressure not to lose once a horse reaches a certain status. It is just too bad that a billionaire owner has yet to stand up and race and resist the urge to cash out. I guess Stronach bringing back Ghostzapper for one more year, is as close to that as we get (though he was hardly overraced)

While I agree with you on Storm Cat, I think Mr. Prospector & Danzig were worthwhile sires of horse that were capable of getting the Classic distances.
Apparently I'm not the only one who agrees with you. You probably already saw this though. I thought it interesting that it mentioned the same Sires that you did.

As long as I'm here I do NOT think think that Cigar was the best horse, maybe top 25. There have been a lot of Great horses that weren't able to overcome adversities (bad rides, off tracks, etc) to keep an unbeaten streak alive.

I think Cigar just happened to come along in a period when the handicap division was rather weak.

http://opinions.bloodhorse.com/viewstory.asp?id=40480

[Slewbopper]

Originally Posted by philcski

That Met Mile field was awesome, would never argue that, and the performance was better than awesome. I was there that day... 3YO's aren't supposed to do that.

Don't know why I wasn't there that day. I remember like yesterday going to CT OTB and betting $50 to win on him and standing in my living room watching the tube screaming over and over "Piss on them Bull. Piss on them Bull." You know how you get caught up in that repetitive thing when cheering a horse down the stretch? Loved that horse.

[Slewbopper]

Originally Posted by Cardus

Though I am sure that this is researchable (word?), I seem to remember Chris Lincoln's voiceover of the Woodward race on ESPN's Top Ten Races of the Year, in which he said that there were nine Grade One winners in that race who had earned $15 million. I think that this race was voted Race of the Year by those affiliated with ESPN's weekly racing show.

It was an 8 horse field
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BvixU...k%20New%20York

[Dunbar]

"Greatness" has several aspects. I include consistency and durability as aspects of greatness. So, whenever someone says that Ghostzapper without-a-doubt was a "greater" horse than Cigar, I ask how many Ghostzapper vs Cigar races would Ghostzapper have won if they faced off 10 times in a year? I believe Cigar would have won at least 5. Could Ghostzapper have even showed up for more than 5?

I love both horses. But what Cigar accomplished on the track (and on so many tracks!) was something special. IMO he's as "great" as any horse since Spectacular Bid.

--Dunbar