Top 25 3yo's 1987-2007

[The Bid]

Drugs is on the LITF hate wagon?

You dont think the three 100+ beyers as a 2yo show superior talent?

The horse never ran a sub 103 until the BC and by that time he was filled with cancer

[King Glorious]

You know how I feel about Java Gold. Lost Code is also on my list of the top 25 as are Alysheba and Bet Twice. So I'm with you when it comes to looking at their overall quality. But when it comes to sprinting, we are far apart. I can't see Java Gold coming within five lengths of Fog at 7f or within 10 lengths at 6f. On the Line was a very talented horse and that would have been a good matchup. But Afleet and Lost Code? In sprints? Lost Code was a very nice horse and he had nice front end speed but front-end route speed is vastly different than front-end sprint speed. See Commentator. All four of Lost Code's 3yo stakes wins came at 9f. Afleet wouldn't have been able to stay in the same pan shot with Fog in a sprint race.

[blackthroatedwind]

Originally Posted by The Bid

Drugs is on the LITF hate wagon?

you dont think the three 100+ beyers as a 2yo show superior talent?

I think he was a terrific horse and I really liked him. I just don't think that overall he displayed a talent that was as good as the one many people believed. That doesn't necessarily make me right, and clearly you and I disagree on him, but overall I think he was a cut below what I would consider special.

I actually wanted him to win that BC Sprint just to prove that he really did have an explosive A-game. Ultimately I'm just not sure he did. But, as you said, illness may have prevented him from displaying it.

Part of my problem is that I read so much misplaced adulation on boards like this that I sometimes fall victim to going overboard the other way when I see horses being overrated. No doubt that was the case with Smarty Jones.

[blackthroatedwind]

Originally Posted by King Glorious

You know how I feel about Java Gold. Lost Code is also on my list of the top 25 as are Alysheba and Bet Twice. So I'm with you when it comes to looking at their overall quality. But when it comes to sprinting, we are far apart. I can't see Java Gold coming within five lengths of Fog at 7f or within 10 lengths at 6f. On the Line was a very talented horse and that would have been a good matchup. But Afleet and Lost Code? In sprints? Lost Code was a very nice horse and he had nice front end speed but front-end route speed is vastly different than front-end sprint speed. See Commentator. All four of Lost Code's 3yo stakes wins came at 9f. Afleet wouldn't have been able to stay in the same pan shot with Fog in a sprint race.

Take a look at Java Gold's 3YO debut.

[King Glorious]

My initial feeling after the BC was that he had blown his opportunity to silence his doubters. I was not ready to buy the illness excuse when it first came out. The fact that he was dead a very short time later.....yeah that made me accept the illness excuse. I also don't think that Gilchrist did him any favors with that schedule. He wasn't just shipping from North Cal to South Cal or from NY to Florida. He was shipped completely across the country and back 13 times. That's bound to take a toll on any horse.

[horseofcourse]

Originally Posted by King Glorious

I must say that I'm very surprised to see Xtra Heat make any list. Personally, I don't even know if I'd rank her as one of the top three 3yo filly sprinters of the period. If you like Xtra Heat, what did you think about Very Subtle or Safely Kept? Very Subtle is one underrated filly. She won the BC (beating Groovy) and also went back east and won the Test and won the Fantasy Stakes (via DQ) in Arkansas. Both of those fillies won the premiere 3yo filly sprint race.

Probably right...I was going off the top of my head and I remember Xtra Heat and her great 3 yr old year nearly winning the BC. I didn't follow racing too closely in the late 80s other than the big dirt route races when I was in college so those two you mentioned I completely forgot about...especially SAfely Kept who I agree was better most likely. Simply a case of Xtra Heat being more fresh in my mind as doing something pretty special as a 3 yr old sprint filly. Same with Housebuster...simply forgot about him when making the list. (Harder for me to remember sprinters for whatever reason!!) Out of fariness I thought I should put a sprinter or two in and LITF and Xtra Heat were who came to mind (probably should have put a turf horse or two in as well or a foreign horse.) Just didn't occur to me.

[King Glorious]

Originally Posted by blackthroatedwind

Take a look at Java Gold's 3YO debut.

Saw that race and also the Cowdin, Saratoga Special, and the Best Turn. I'm not saying that he couldn't sprint but as much as I love him, I wouldn't place him in Fog's class as a sprinter.

[blackthroatedwind]

Originally Posted by King Glorious

Saw that race and also the Cowdin, Saratoga Special, and the Best Turn. I'm not saying that he couldn't sprint but as much as I love him, I wouldn't place him in Fog's class as a sprinter.

What about Turkoman? What would you classify him as?

I know he was earlier.....but he would have drowned Lost in the Fog at 7F.

[philcski]

Originally Posted by blackthroatedwind

I think he was a terrific horse and I really liked him. I just don't think that overall he displayed a talent that was as good as the one many people believed. That doesn't necessarily make me right, and clearly you and I disagree on him, but overall I think he was a cut below what I would consider special.

I actually wanted him to win that BC Sprint just to prove that he really did have an explosive A-game. Ultimately I'm just not sure he did. But, as you said, illness may have prevented him from displaying it.

Part of my problem is that I read so much misplaced adulation on boards like this that I sometimes fall victim to going overboard the other way when I see horses being overrated. No doubt that was the case with Smarty Jones.

Keep this in mind when you remember the zealots... he was extremely UNDERRATED throughout the '04 Derby Trail. In the Rebel, he went off at 7/2 behind a MAIDEN WINNER (Purge), and blew his doors off. However, he still wasn't even considered good enough to be included in Derby Future Wager #2 (which is why the Field went off as such a heavy favorite, which doesn't usually happen Pool 2). Even in the Derby, he was a lukewarm favorite despite being lengths better on paper and much the best visually to that point because "he couldn't go the distance" and a horse that started at Philly Park "couldn't win the Derby". Was he overrated post-career? Yes, because it was incomplete. Sadly, we got fed a bucket of lies and never got to see a completed campaign.

I will give you this... I highly doubt he would have hit the board in the '04 BCC. What we do know is the one horse that beat him has never earned the respect he should get- he's one of a very select group that has won NY's premier age restricted races (Champagne, Belmont, Travers). Who knows what he would have done at 4? I don't think it's fair to speculate either way.

[SniperSB23]

Originally Posted by blackthroatedwind

What about Turkoman? What would you classify him as?

I know he was earlier.....but he would have drowned Lost in the Fog at 7F.

LITF at 7 furlongs was not that good of a horse. His last three Beyers pre-BC at 6 furlong were 114/116/110. His last four at 7 furlongs pre-BC were 105/107/105/105.

[King Glorious]

Originally Posted by blackthroatedwind

What about Turkoman? What would you classify him as?

I know he was earlier.....but he would have drowned Lost in the Fog at 7F.

We see things way different. But then, you know that.

[blackthroatedwind]

Originally Posted by King Glorious

We see things way different. But then, you know that.

Seeing things differently is one thing.....are you aware of the two races Turkoman ran at 7F as a 4YO?

[NoLuvForPletch]

Originally Posted by SniperSB23

LITF at 7 furlongs was not that good of a horse. His last three Beyers pre-BC at 6 furlong were 114/116/110. His last four at 7 furlongs pre-BC were 105/107/105/105.

Ironic thread as LITF's half brother, by Speightstown, will be going through the ring very shortly. Hip #176.

[philcski]

Originally Posted by NoLuvForPletch

Ironic thread as LITF's half brother, by Speightstown, will be going through the ring very shortly. Hip #176.

What did he work?

[Cannon Shell]

A horse like Turkoman would be revered as a racing God now.

[miraja2]

Originally Posted by NoLuvForPletch

Ironic thread as LITF's half brother, by Speightstown, will be going through the ring very shortly. Hip #176.

Have they ever bred the mare to Lost Soldier again?

[NoLuvForPletch]

Originally Posted by philcski

What did he work?

10.2

[blackthroatedwind]

Actually, I was wrong, he won his 4YO debut at 6F....in 108 1/5....closing from about 147 lengths out of it. By the way, he won the Widener in 1:58 3/5 three weeks later. For what it's worth, that was a new track record at Hialeah ( he was last with a half mile to go...and went his final half in 46 4/5 ).

He returned off a layoff to finish a close second to Groovy in the 7F Forego, the track was muddy and Groovy opened up 7 top of the stretch.

[blackthroatedwind]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

A horse like Turkoman would be revered as a racing God now.

No doubt. I loved him.

[NoLuvForPletch]

Originally Posted by NoLuvForPletch

10.2

He's Out, unless my video froze through his sale