Is Haskin joking?

[SniperSB23]

Originally Posted by Split Rock

Sorry---when you are caught cheating as many times as Assmussen has been, I choose not to believe a SINGLE accomplishment on its merit.

Not saying Curlin would be a $5k claimer in another barn but I can't dignify his efforts when he is managed by a cheater like Steve A.

It is of my opinion that the effect of drugs on top class horses is a lot less than people make it out to be. It is certainly a factor on claimers but when it comes to the big guns I don't think the trainers take the big risks. How else do you explain the tremendous day that Asmussen and Dutrow had in Dubai where everything is banned?

[ArlJim78]

Originally Posted by Split Rock

Nafzger never used an illegal edge in his life. His horses were never drugged. However, Assmussen's all are. Thus, I think Street Sense is a significantly better horse and will be a top notch sire. Curlin will be a bust.

Name me one Assmussen runner that went on to be a top notch sire. I can think of at least one Nafzger runner that went on to great things as a sire, Unbridled.

I realize some people have a hard time rationally discussing Curlin because of an extreme distaste for his trainer and/or owners. I have no interest in the drug/breeding/connections aspect of all this. It's irrelavant to my main point which is that Curlin was no doubt the best performer of the 2007 3yo's.

[SniperSB23]

Originally Posted by ArlJim78

I realize some people have a hard time rationally discussing Curlin because of an extreme distaste for his trainer and/or owners. I have no interest in the drug/breeding/connections aspect of all this. It's irrelavant to my main point which is that Curlin was no doubt the best performer of the 2007 3yo's.

I have to disagree with the no doubt assessment. Winning in the slop at Monmouth (which we knew Street Sense didn't like) was the only time he singled himself out and it hardly made him the no doubt best performer of the 2007 3yos. If Street Sense and Hard Spun were both in training this year I would guarantee that Curlin would not go undefeated.

[ArlJim78]

Originally Posted by Danzig

i
i think curlin is a good horse who is being elevated by many due to having the best of circumstances more so than the best of talent.

well we just really disagree on this. from my point of view, Street Sense is clearly the one who had the best of circumstances. His two races that earned him all the big accolades were as drugs pointed out greatly enhanced by trip and pace factors. When he didn't have those gifts handed to him he was much more mortal and no sure thing.

for me Curlin earned all the credit starting late in the year, and campaining in every TC race remarkably well, historically well. then when he came back in the fall he took it up another notch.

the progression was evident in the head to head match ups
Kentucky Derby, Street Sense took advantage of a miraculous rail trip while Curlin had a more troubled trip and experienced the big race for the first time checks in a well beaten third.

Preakness, Curlin already exposes Street Sense by running him down to win. there was absolutely no way he should have been able to do that if Street Sense was the more talented horse. Street Sense had the jump on Curlin and should have been home free.

The Classic, Curlin runs by Street Sense like he was standing still.

[ArlJim78]

Originally Posted by SniperSB23

I have to disagree with the no doubt assessment. Winning in the slop at Monmouth (which we knew Street Sense didn't like) was the only time he singled himself out and it hardly made him the no doubt best performer of the 2007 3yos. If Street Sense and Hard Spun were both in training this year I would guarantee that Curlin would not go undefeated.

Street Sense would never have gotten in the way of a Curlin win this year.
Hard Spun, under the right conditions might have been able to.

[SniperSB23]

Originally Posted by ArlJim78

Street Sense would never have gotten in the way of a Curlin win this year.
Hard Spun, under the right conditions might have been able to.

The horse often makes their trip which is why I don't understand the criticism of Street Sense cause his big wins were dream trips. There are very few horses that would have taken the rail like Street Sense did. Brother Derek might have actually crapped mid-race had his jockey ever tried to take him through a hole like that.

[Danzig]

Originally Posted by ArlJim78

well we just really disagree on this. from my point of view, Street Sense is clearly the one who had the best of circumstances. His two races that earned him all the big accolades were as drugs pointed out greatly enhanced by trip and pace factors. When he didn't have those gifts handed to him he was much more mortal and no sure thing.

for me Curlin earned all the credit starting late in the year, and campaining in every TC race remarkably well, historically well. then when he came back in the fall he took it up another notch.

the progression was evident in the head to head match ups
Kentucky Derby, Street Sense took advantage of a miraculous rail trip while Curlin had a more troubled trip and experienced the big race for the first time checks in a well beaten third.

Preakness, Curlin already exposes Street Sense by running him down to win. there was absolutely no way he should have been able to do that if Street Sense was the more talented horse. Street Sense had the jump on Curlin and should have been home free.

The Classic, Curlin runs by Street Sense like he was standing still.

i thought street senses tampa bay derby, in which he defeated any given saturday and the clock was one of the best races of the year. he wasn't supposed to be 100% for that race, but he never gave up. in the preakness, it was a head bob either way-and curlin won it. then he loses to rags, who then loses the gazelle.
as for the classic, hard spun ran second (again, followed by the monster awesome gem, and then street sense. the derby, street sense, hard spun and then curlin. same group all year, battling each other all year. how that makes one head and shoulders better than the others, i don't know.

i NEVER said street sense was more talented. i think he was equally talented, and showed precocity at two, and then kept his form thru august of last year. now that's something that has been sadly lacking lately in tc runners. hard spun ran hard all year, and curlin as well. but they all took turns beating each other throughout the year. curlin may have had a stronger ending, but you can't use that to negate the beginning of the year.

[The Indomitable DrugS]

Originally Posted by Kasept

Trot out whatever after-the-fact conclusion you want to, but Curlin wasn't "clearly the best horse coming into the Derby."

Why was he not?

And would it be an after the fact conclusion on my part if I said so much before the race?

http://www.derbytrail.com/forums/sho...ghlight=post13 (post #13)

[The Indomitable DrugS]

Originally Posted by ArlJim78

Street Sense would never have gotten in the way of a Curlin win this year.
Hard Spun, under the right conditions might have been able to.

I totally agree.

[Danzig]

i don't know how you can make the case that street sense wouldn't have been able to give curlin a run for his money at four. street sense won throughout the year last year, but then ran his worst race in the swamp at monmouth. how does that correlate to him not giving curlin a run this year? would all their matchups be in a quagmire?

[The Indomitable DrugS]

Because, and it pains me to say, Street Sense was always phony.

[Danzig]

lol
always phony? talk about rewriting history.
that has to knock curlins ability down a couple notches, if he was all out to beat a phony by a head bob in the preakness.

[The Indomitable DrugS]

He stumbled, was rushed along, bore out some, was left for dead by a perfect trip Street Sense on the far turn - and somehow won anyway.

Street Sense had no excuse for not winning that race.

[Danzig]

and an argument could be made that curlin shouldn't have lost the belmont. none of this gets us anywhere really.
i thought there were several good horses, and that curlin ended up the season the strongest.
i also think it's a shame they will only meet up now in our imaginations. but no one will convince me that street sense was a phony, or that curlin was towering head and shoulders over his peers.

[The Indomitable DrugS]

Originally Posted by Danzig

and an argument could be made that curlin shouldn't have lost the belmont.

Yeah, a bad one.

It was a slow paced 12 furlong race and he was caught inside and didn't have the turn of foot. Big deal.

[The Indomitable DrugS]

Shut up Hossy.

No one said Street Sense was finishing dead last anywhere.

[The Indomitable DrugS]

Convenient but consistant and proven correct.

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by Split Rock

Nafzger never used an illegal edge in his life. His horses were never drugged. However, Assmussen's all are. Thus, I think Street Sense is a significantly better horse and will be a top notch sire. Curlin will be a bust.

Name me one Assmussen runner that went on to be a top notch sire. I can think of at least one Nafzger runner that went on to great things as a sire, Unbridled.

posse is doing pretty well. it is a stretch to say that horses given "illegal" drugs wont be sucessful as sires because racetrack performance doesnt necessarily translate to success at stud. Horses like Formal Gold and Skip Away would be Gods on the track nowdays but havent been bigtime sires and i'm pretty sure it isnt because they were drugged.

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by SniperSB23

It is of my opinion that the effect of drugs on top class horses is a lot less than people make it out to be. It is certainly a factor on claimers but when it comes to the big guns I don't think the trainers take the big risks. How else do you explain the tremendous day that Asmussen and Dutrow had in Dubai where everything is banned?

I respect your opinion but on this matter your assumptions may not be correct. Horses are horses. If a horse has an issue that an illegal drug can deal with they will run better regardless of class. There is a theory that trainers arent taking a big risk because they are using substances for which there are no tests. If there are no tests then there can be no positives. The amount of research done on possible unknown drugs is not much. Dubai, japan, hong kong or here.

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by ArlJim78

Preakness, Curlin already exposes Street Sense by running him down to win. there was absolutely no way he should have been able to do that if Street Sense was the more talented horse. Street Sense had the jump on Curlin and should have been home free.

He was heads the best that day but not shoulders

I will give you the BC but you have a hard time convincing me that the Preakness proved Curlin was "head and shoulders" better than the other three year olds.