Jerry Brown's letter to TDN on HOY discussion

[RolloTomasi]

Originally Posted by dalakhani

If we were talking about just ONE horse it would be one thing but we are talking about two. Were they both simply off form?

Didn't Bullsbay battle a foot abscess (after stepping on a shard of metal) leading up to the BC Mile? He ran horrible there, yet had previous synthetic form (albeit not at the top level). Why would he necessarily turn it around when shipped back and wheeled back in the Clark?

Didn't Macho Again bow out of the BC Classic with a cough? Didn't he miss a couple of works the previous month?

Does any of this suggest they would bring their A-games to the race?

Not to mention, they've both been running since last winter without much of a breather.

[Merlinsky]

Originally Posted by dalakhani

If we were talking about just ONE horse it would be one thing but we are talking about two. Were they both simply off form?

Well they weren't the only two horses that have lost form. They're simply the two people are determined to argue about at this moment. I'm sure if we did a roll call we'd find a few hundred others at least that went off form since September. None of whom faced RA or Zenyatta but just to illustrate the point that sure, shocking as it is, two horses might be off form at the same time. You could say Einstein is too. Curlin was last year. Not everybody is a freaky end-of-yearer like Conduit. Some get injured at the same time. How dare Macho Again not ask Bullsbay for permission before he had a problem. Everybody knows you take turns.

[dalakhani]

Originally Posted by Merlinsky

That didn't seem to be what Travis was implying at all. It in no way means Macho Again's only good at Saratoga. What I believe several of us are saying (including Steve if I'm remembering my At the Races well--please correct me if I'm wrong Steve) is that at this time in their seasons, Macho Again and Bullsbay had form that was strong and moving up. RA caught them when they'd be most primed this year to give her a tussle and she still beat them.

Of course, as usual, Haskin says it best: http://cs.bloodhorse.com/blogs/horse...he-rescue.aspx

So the trainers of Macho Again and Bullsbay had their respective charges primed for their best efforts in...The woodward? Really? No disrespect Merlinsky but thats laughable.

Lets face it-neither horse is very good. We want to heap huge praise on the filly for holding these two horses off and she deserves a measure of credit for doing that. Lets not pretend though that those horses are something they arent. Yesterday seemed to back up that point.

[herkhorse]

Originally Posted by RolloTomasi

What happened to Holy Bull in the Fountain of Youth? What happened to Afleet Alex in the Rebel? What happened to Point Given in the Derby?

Horses come in and out of form. They don't always show their best every time out. Why does a horse's previous races become moot just because its latest was below par?

[dalakhani]

Originally Posted by RolloTomasi

Didn't Bullsbay battle a foot abscess (after stepping on a shard of metal) leading up to the BC Mile? He ran horrible there, yet had previous synthetic form (albeit not at the top level). Why would he necessarily turn it around when shipped back and wheeled back in the Clark?

Didn't Macho Again bow out of the BC Classic with a cough? Didn't he miss a couple of works the previous month?

Does any of this suggest they would bring their A-games to the race?

Not to mention, they've both been running since last winter without much of a breather.

I was not aware that either was battling issues. If that is indeed the case, it would be plausible that they looked worse yesterday than they had earlier in the year.

[NTamm1215]

Originally Posted by dalakhani

So the trainers of Macho Again and Bullsbay had their respective charges primed for their best efforts in...The woodward? Really? No disrespect Merlinsky but thats laughable.

Lets face it-neither horse is very good. We want to heap huge praise on the filly for holding these two horses off and she deserves a measure of credit for doing that. Lets not pretend though that those horses are something they arent. Yesterday seemed to back up that point.

So they're not good because they lost yesterday?

Macho Again had a very good year by today's standards. He won a Grade II, a Grade I, and placed in two other GIs. Bullsbay had a good year himself.

Whether Macho Again or Bullsbay's form was off yesterday probably had little to do with whether their trainer's had their horses primed. Don't give Macho's trainer that much credit. They were both in career-best form this summer and Rachel faced them at the top of their game. If you want to argue that the top of their game is not much then that's a different issue.

NT

[dalakhani]

Originally Posted by NTamm1215

So they're not good because they lost yesterday?

Macho Again had a very good year by today's standards. He won a Grade II, a Grade I, and placed in two other GIs. Bullsbay had a good year himself.

Whether Macho Again or Bullsbay's form was off yesterday probably had little to do with whether their trainer's had their horses primed. Don't give Macho's trainer that much credit. They were both in career-best form this summer and Rachel faced them at the top of their game. If you want to argue that the top of their game is not much then that's a different issue.

NT

And thats basically what i mean. Those horses simply arent that good.

[Merlinsky]

Originally Posted by dalakhani

So the trainers of Macho Again and Bullsbay had their respective charges primed for their best efforts in...The woodward? Really? No disrespect Merlinsky but thats laughable.

Lets face it-neither horse is very good. We want to heap huge praise on the filly for holding these two horses off and she deserves a measure of credit for doing that. Lets not pretend though that those horses are something they arent. Yesterday seemed to back up that point.

Their trainers might not've done it on purpose, but that's when the horses were at their best. Not everyone expects to win the BCC so they look at another G1, or maybe they think it'll get even better and the horse isn't even primed yet. Looking back on their year it was obvious this was their top. As I said, Haskin seemed to think it too so I don't feel particularly silly in my assertion. Nobody said they're Secretariat, but they were feeling their best and that best was dangerous against the average or even above average 3yo filly. RA was obviously much better than that.

[NTamm1215]

Originally Posted by dalakhani

And thats basically what i mean. Those horses simply arent that good.

And that begs the question then who did Zenyatta beat that was that good in the Classic?

Gio Ponti- A turf horse who was able to transfer his form to synthetics but was well beaten in his last synthetic start prior to the BC.

Twice Over- Ditto GP without the prior synthetic stuff.

Summer Bird- Dirt horse.

Colonel John- Good horse? Not in my opinion.

Richard's Kid- A dirt joke who got good on synthetics but was coming off a loss to a bad B-list Euro.

Awesome Gem- Dirt horse and a mediocre one at that.

Regal Ransom- Dirt horse.

Mine That Bird- Dirt horse who particularly hated the Pro-Ride and was off form on BC day.

Rip Van Winkle- Turf horse who had feet problems that reared their ugly head prior to the BC.

Einstein- Good horse who was plagued by a bad trip.

Girolamo- Dirt horse.

The only other horse that Zenyatta beat this year that's even worth discussing is Life Is Sweet, who benefited from a tremendous pace setup on her favorite track to win the Distaff.

NT

[Smooth Operator]

Originally Posted by NTamm1215

And that begs the question then who did Zenyatta beat that was that good in the Classic?

Twice Over- Ditto GP without the prior synthetic stuff.

LOL ... Do you remember what happened in last year's BCC, NTamm1215 … when those two Euros came to Southern Cal and made Curlin look like some overmatched allowance runner?

Twice Over took a 10f G1 in Britain this season ... and beat BCC champion Raven's Pass in a G3 mile last season.

This was a VERY classy 4yo colt which ran his race at Anita ... but still was no match for Z.

This alone speaks volumes about her ability.

And Rip Van Winkle looks like the classic Euro miler, but he still managed to get within a length of superhorse Sea The Stars in a 10f G1 this season.


At any rate, that BCC field was FAR better than anything RA faced this year.


To deny the great undefeated champion mare Zenyatta a HotY award would be an absolute disgrace for the sport, in my opinion...

[Merlinsky]

Nick Zito weighs in: http://blog.timesunion.com/horseraci...lexandra/3700/

Of course the calls of 'he's a NY trainer, and we all know he hates synthetic, of course he's biased' are bound to come in. Pretend I already pointed that out (oops no need to pretend) and proceed onward in the discussion.

I can't find where someone mentioned the DRF poll on HOY and said Z was ahead by a 2 to 1 margin. I checked it out again having voted awhile back and frankly given that it's a popular poll with easy-to-do ballot stuffing means any fan with time on their hands (apparently a lot of us) can dig in and puff up whoever they want. A NY Times poll had RA ahead awhile back (it's got RA with 69%). I'm glad this is not by popular vote cuz sorry, Barbaro didn't technically deserve HOY and you know he'd have gotten it. Maybe a 'fan favorite' Eclipse could alleviate some of that pressure.

[Antitrust32]

Originally Posted by Smooth Operator

LOL ... Do you remember what happened in last year's BCC, NTamm1215 … when those two Euros came to Southern Cal and made Curlin look like some overmatched allowance runner?

Twice Over took a 10f G1 in Britain this season ... and beat BCC champion Raven's Pass in a G3 mile last season.

This was a VERY classy 4yo colt which ran his race at Anita ... but still was no match for Z.

This alone speaks volumes about her ability.

And Rip Van Winkle looks like the classic Euro miler, but he still managed to get within a length of superhorse Sea The Stars in a 10f G1 this season.


At any rate, that BCC field was FAR better than anything RA faced this year.


To deny the great undefeated champion mare Zenyatta a HotY award would be an absolute disgrace for the sport, in my opinion...

Yes, obviously Rip Van Winkle ran the exact same race in the BCClassic as he did against Sea The Stars earlier this year.

And it is so hilarious that Einstein flatters Zenyatta now? I mean the BCClassic was obviously Einsteins best race Evah.

I just dont get it!

[Smooth Operator]

Given what happened last year, the two Euros were the real threats going into the contest, Antitrust32.

Turned out Rip didn't want that extra distance, though … looks like he's better suited for eight.

TO proved legit, but simply couldn't hang with the monster mare in the lane.

That place horse is a nice animal too.


At any rate, you just can't give the big prize to a young horse when you have an undefeated champion older horse which took on all comers and prevailed impressively in the biggest unrestricted race of the year. It's just wrong.

But they're gunna make the same mistake they did in '97 when they gave it to some overhyped, overrated 2yo instead of one of those talented older beasts.

Almost did it again in '04 when that 3yo (SJ) which only ever raced against mediocre colts his own age got way too many votes.

Don't get me wrong, the Alexander filly is clearly a quality animal, but she never proved that she could handle the level of competition that Z whipped in the Classic … not even close.

[Antitrust32]

Originally Posted by Smooth Operator

Given what happened last year, the two Euros were the real threats going into the contest, Antitrust32.

Turned out Rip didn't want that extra distance, though … looks like he's better suited for eight.

TO proved legit, but simply couldn't hang with the monster mare in the lane.

That place horse is a nice animal too.


At any rate, you just can't give the big prize to a young horse when you have an undefeated champion older horse which took on all comers and prevailed impressively in the biggest unrestricted race of the year. It's just wrong.

But they're gunna make the same mistake they did in '97 when they gave it to some overhyped, overrated 2yo instead of one of those talented older beasts.

Almost did it again in '04 when that 3yo (SJ) which only ever raced against mediocre colts his own age got way too many votes.

Don't get me wrong, the Alexander filly is clearly a quality animal, but she never proved that she could handle the level of competition that Z whipped in the Classic … not even close.

i will admit that gio and twice over are better horses than anything Rachel faced. well they are better turf horses, we have no idea how gio or twice over would do on the dirt... and thats the thing.. Rachel is a dirt horse, why is she supposed to run in a non dirt race that is basically the same as turf?

Zenyatta ran an incredible RACE.. she deserves awards & accolades.
Rachel had an incredible YEAR.. The best YEAR of any horse running in the USA (Gio had a great year also but not like Rachel). She deserves horse of the YEAR.

Though I'm completely cool with both horses sharing HOY, if that is possible it should happen this year.

[kgar311]

Originally Posted by Smooth Operator

Given what happened last year, the two Euros were the real threats going into the contest, Antitrust32.

Turned out Rip didn't want that extra distance, though … looks like he's better suited for eight.

TO proved legit, but simply couldn't hang with the monster mare in the lane.

That place horse is a nice animal too.


At any rate, you just can't give the big prize to a young horse when you have an undefeated champion older horse which took on all comers and prevailed impressively in the biggest unrestricted race of the year. It's just wrong.

But they're gunna make the same mistake they did in '97 when they gave it to some overhyped, overrated 2yo instead of one of those talented older beasts.

Almost did it again in '04 when that 3yo (SJ) which only ever raced against mediocre colts his own age got way too many votes.

Don't get me wrong, the Alexander filly is clearly a quality animal, but she never proved that she could handle the level of competition that Z whipped in the Classic … not even close.

If the Classic means everything then why wasn't Ravens Pass HOY last year? I believe he whooped up the eventual HOY in that race too! I think because Curlin had the better YEAR and RP had the better 1 race.
And it will not be a mistake WHEN they give RA HOY

[parsixfarms]

Originally Posted by kgar311

If the Classic means everything then why wasn't Ravens Pass HOY last year? I believe he whooped up the eventual HOY in that race too! I think because Curlin had the better YEAR and RP had the better 1 race.
And it will not be a mistake WHEN they give RA HOY

That's really comparing apples and oranges. Raven's Pass won a single race in North America in 2008. Say what you will about the competition faced by Zenyatta in her pre-Breeders' Cup campaign in 2009, but she did win three North America Grade Is and a Grade II.

[kgar311]

Originally Posted by parsixfarms

That's really comparing apples and oranges. Raven's Pass won a single race in North America in 2008. Say what you will about the competition faced by Zenyatta in her pre-Breeders' Cup campaign in 2009, but she did win three North America Grade Is and a Grade II.

I know why RP didnt win I was just trying to make a comparison. The people in Zenyatta's camp want to throw out her prior four races and all of RA's 8 races and give her HOY based on winning the Classic. It just isnt right to give a horse HOY honors for winning one race. I was just saying if they didnt do it for RP they are not going to do it for Zen.

[NTamm1215]

Originally Posted by parsixfarms

That's really comparing apples and oranges. Raven's Pass won a single race in North America in 2008. Say what you will about the competition faced by Zenyatta in her pre-Breeders' Cup campaign in 2009, but she did win three North America Grade Is and a Grade II.

I agree but haven't the Zenyatta backers turned this into a Classic vs. Woodward type of deal in a sense?

NT

[parsixfarms]

Originally Posted by kgar311

I know why RP didnt win I was just trying to make a comparison. The people in Zenyatta's camp want to throw out her prior four races and all of RA's 8 races and give her HOY based on winning the Classic. It just isnt right to give a horse HOY honors for winning one race. I was just saying if they didnt do it for RP they are not going to do it for Zen.

Actually, it's just the opposite. I don't think anyone in Zenyatta's camp is advocating that people throw out her three Grade I wins. They are using the fact that she won three other Grade Is to assert that she wasn't the "one-hit wonder" that many of those in the Rachel camp would try to make Zenyatta out to be.

[parsixfarms]

Originally Posted by NTamm1215

I agree but haven't the Zenyatta backers turned this into a Classic vs. Woodward type of deal in a sense?

In some respects, yes, because it suits their opinion: Zenyatta's win in the Classic was a more impressive win than Rachel's in the Woodward. But that's not all there is to the issue. There are a whole lot of arguments from both sides that I don't find particularly persuasive. And I'm sure that there are some facts that I consider relevant (such as Zenyatta being unbeaten) that others find irrelevant.