Discreet Cat earns 115 Beyer Speed Figure

Originally Posted by Sightseek

My apologies for going off topic, but what did you think of Barbaro's stride?

Also, on a side note, I don't think you have to be the richest of the rich to get the best yearling...as the recent study on the high priced Storm Cat's who have sold at Keeneland indicated, racing success can be achieved by the better eye, not always the better wallet. Of course, for horses in training, having the bigger wallet to make huge offers is very good too.

Barbaro had a grand stride....covered as much ground as any horse you'll see, but he DID have that high, turf action where his knees went really high in his natural gait and when he came down he slapped the ground pretty good, which is not advantageous for the health of a horse his size...he is a big, heavy animal.....I will say this though, he was pretty damn smooth for his size - which is just a testiment to his natural athleticism...

[randallscott35]

Does anyone know what he got for a thoro number for that effort?

[Sightseek]

Originally Posted by Cunningham Racing

Barbaro had a grand stride....covered as much ground as any horse you'll see, but he DID have that high, turf action where his knees went really high in his natural gait and when he came down he slapped the ground pretty good, which is not advantageous for the health of a horse his size...he is a big, heavy animal.....I will say this though, he was pretty damn smooth for his size - which is just a testiment to his natural athleticism...

yup, I never liked his stride because of that high action.

[ceejay]

If Discrete Cat were to go in the Breeders' Cup (really any he's eligible for) he certainly would not be a top choice for me. Why? Because he's never faced any top grade North American competition. Not a single graded stakes winner in the Jerome. He did face a full field in Dubai and beat Invasor (who clearly did not run his best race) but I wonder how Discrete Cat would stand up to the insanity that the 14-horse BC Sprint is.

[kentuckyrosesinmay]

Originally Posted by Sightseek

yup, I never liked his stride because of that high action.

I loved the way that horse moved. His stride was gigantic...He covered so much ground that it was unbelieveable. When his he was in the suspension stage of his stride when all four legs were off the ground, the toes of his hooves were literally like a foot and a half off the ground. He was a freak in that sense. I forgave his high knee action, although Joel was right in that it causes a horse to hit the ground a little harder than what is desirable. However, it didn't seem as if Barbaro hit the ground very hard at all. He was a very tall horse, but he was hound gutted and finely built. His conformation and movement is what made him so fast. Barbaro was in every sense, a freak.

[bogeydaman]

Originally Posted by pgardn

If the horse retires undefeated then one might be able to claim they got to see Colin or Personal Ensign. I like to see horses have to work for some of their victories. Not the horses fault though. I think the BCC will be a suprise for this horse. I get the field, who takes Bernardini in the BCC?

He is not undefeated. He lost his 1st race.

Originally Posted by Cunningham Racing

A) The head stayed low is a trait of most A.P. Indys...the good and the bad ones....A.P. Indy himself was what we call a "rooter", or a horse that carries his head extremely low when in full stride....MANY A.P. Indys do this, even the bad ones...trust me on this...

B) Mineshaft was not as precocious as Bernardini and he just wasn't as good as him either...period...I'm sorry for those who disagree but I'm supremely confident we'll all see this to be true by the time Bernardini retires....i know them both VERY well, especially Mineshaft through Robby Albarado and Neil Howard and my days at Fair Grounds....trust me...I've put my hands on the horse many times...Bernardini is in another league...he just is...

C) Mineshaft's pedigree was comparable to Bernardini's but that is all IMO...he is not near the physical specimen, nor near the athlete...sorry, Bernardini is just more superior in several categories that it would take me longer to explain than its worth typing...

D) Also, Mieshaft has been a disappointment at sire as far as how his babies look in relation to the book of mares he got...Vindication and Empire Maker - fellow first crop sires - blew him out of the water in the sales arena....Bernardini has the chance to be a better stallion than his sire IMO...

E) LITF had one of the best bio-meshanics systems as long as that could be sophisticatedly measured....it was scientifically proven that LITF had hardly any wasted motion...all of his energy was positively moving forward and in an efficient, momentum and ryhtmicly generated motion.....he had very little wasted motion....Bernardini's stride is just as good or better IMO because he is so athletic that his feet don't appear to remain on the ground as much as LITF...An example of horrible action and severe wasted motion is Discreet Cat - but look how good he is with all of that extra, wasted motion...BTW, Mineshaft didn't move half as nicely as Bernardini does...

F) Bernardini has handled everything to this point with the upmost class and with immense ability....What makes you think he doesn't have the class to dig in and be a competitor when challenged? I would bet anything that he has the heart of Tiznow...he is a consumate pro in too many areas for me to believe otherwise....Plus, why fault the horse because he hasn't been challenged in the stretch yet? That just goes to show you how much better he is than the other horses...Any horse that can win a Classic race by open lengths as easy as he did IN JUST HIS 4th LIFETIME START is nothing short of special....He has won 4 straight graded stakes and 2 Grade 1s - ALL BY OPENS LENGTHS AND WITH IMMENSE EASE....Is that his fault? What more do you want him to do? Would you like him to slow down and let them catch him in mid-stretch before he starts to try?...comon man...

Better than Mineshaft no way in hell. Not yet. NO flippin way. Way premature. And who cares about how early he shows his stuff besides people that want to win IMMEDIATELY, which of course one of the WORST possible things for this sport. Cmon Joel C.
Heart of Tiznow??????????

WTF. You have to be challenged. Good lord, the supposition is amazing. Your making me want this horse to fold up like a garage sale lawn chair, and I really like the horse.

[Cajungator26]

Originally Posted by bogeydaman

He is not undefeated. He lost his 1st race.

Yep, which means that he could lose again.

[randallscott35]

Originally Posted by pgardn

Better than Mineshaft no way in hell. Not yet. NO flippin way. Way premature. And who cares about how early he shows his stuff besides people that want to win IMMEDIATELY, which of course one of the WORST possible things for this sport. Cmon Joel C.
Heart of Tiznow??????????

WTF. You have to be challenged. Good lord, the supposition is amazing. Your making me want this horse to fold up like a garage sale lawn chair, and I really like the horse.

Couldn't agree more. Beat older horses a few times before he is annointed the best thing since sliced bread...Plus, taking a shot at his foals is premature. Plus I don't judge horses based on how well they do in the shed. Is Spectacular Bid somehow downgraded b/c he was a bust in the shed? Of course not. Let's give Bernardini some time. Like another year. Then we can look again.

Originally Posted by bogeydaman

He is not undefeated. He lost his 1st race.

Corrected. Thanks.

Cunningham and I do not see eye to eye on strides. Again. One never knows how a horse will HOLD form when challenged while TIRED.

Example. If we had a car dressed as a horse that challenged Secretariat the whole way in the Belmont I do not think he would have had the same time. Secretariat was running so smoothly, very relaxed, because the horse was not challenged. I take nothing away from that run because the horse was extraordinarily fast. But he would not have run that smoothly, imo, if he had horses surrounding him down the stretch. Very few thoroughbreds maintain the same stride when tired and challenged, very few. So I wish to see him challenged and run with the same stride. Tiznow my arse.

[Betsy]

Originally Posted by randallscott35

Couldn't agree more. Beat older horses a few times before he is annointed the best thing since sliced bread...Plus, taking a shot at his foals is premature. Plus I don't judge horses based on how well they do in the shed. Is Spectacular Bid somehow downgraded b/c he was a bust in the shed? Of course not. Let's give Bernardini some time. Like another year. Then we can look again.

Fair enough, but I've seen plenty of posts knocking this horse for winning too easily. Should Bernardini be penalized for being exceptionally talented? I also think people are assuming that he will show no heart when challenged- based on what? What happens if he wins the Classic in fine style, and doesn't have to truly dig down to earn that victory? Does he then get penalized because he was too good, even for the older horses?

[kentuckyrosesinmay]

Originally Posted by Cajungator26

Yep, which means that he could lose again.

We are all hoping that he doesn't lose this one...This one is much more important.

[Cajungator26]

Originally Posted by kentuckyrosesinmay

We are all hoping that he doesn't lose this one...This one is much more important.

Call me weird, but I almost hope he does. I just haven't liked him much since the get-go. I'm sorry.

Originally Posted by Betsy

Fair enough, but I've seen plenty of posts knocking this horse for winning too easily. Should Bernardini be penalized for being exceptionally talented? I also think people are assuming that he will show no heart when challenged- based on what? What happens if he wins the Classic in fine style, and doesn't have to truly dig down to earn that victory? Does he then get penalized because he was too good, even for the older horses?

and i repeat:

Example. If we had a car dressed as a horse that challenged Secretariat the whole way in the Belmont, I do not think he would have had the same time. Secretariat was running so smoothly, very relaxed, because the horse was not challenged. I take nothing away from that run because the horse was extraordinarily fast. But he would not have run that smoothly, imo, if he had horses surrounding him down the stretch. Very few thoroughbreds maintain the same stride when tired and challenged, very few. So I wish to see him challenged and run with the same stride. Tiznow my arse.

[kentuckyrosesinmay]

Originally Posted by Betsy

Fair enough, but I've seen plenty of posts knocking this horse for winning too easily. Should Bernardini be penalized for being exceptionally talented? I also think people are assuming that he will show no heart when challenged- based on what? What happens if he wins the Classic in fine style, and doesn't have to truly dig down to earn that victory? Does he then get penalized because he was too good, even for the older horses?

Betsy, IMO, he'll show a lot of guts when he is challenged. I mean, look at the expression on his face when he runs. He has one of the meanest looks of any horse that I have ever seen while running. He is fierce and menacing. He always has those ears pinned back, and that eyeball turned backward, and that nose crinkled, daring for a horse to come close to him in the stretch even though the other horses are lengths back. He is also one of the best galloping horses that I have seen. His stride is so rhymical, powerful, and fluid.

And you basically read my mind on those other questions that you asked. However, I think that he will be challenged sometime or another in a race. Some people will always criticize Bernardini for one reason or another no matter what he does...Personally, I think that he is fantastic.

[kentuckyrosesinmay]

Originally Posted by Cajungator26

Call me weird, but I almost hope he does. I just haven't liked him much since the get-go. I'm sorry.

Cajun, for some stupid reason, I thought that you all were talking about Barbaro, not Bernardini. That was my mistake.

We were talking about Barbaro earlier on this thread as well...

[Betsy]

Originally Posted by pgardn

and i repeat:

Example. If we had a car dressed as a horse that challenged Secretariat the whole way in the Belmont, I do not think he would have had the same time. Secretariat was running so smoothly, very relaxed, because the horse was not challenged. I take nothing away from that run because the horse was extraordinarily fast. But he would not have run that smoothly, imo, if he had horses surrounding him down the stretch. Very few thoroughbreds maintain the same stride when tired and challenged, very few. So I wish to see him challenged and run with the same stride. Tiznow my arse.

I read your post, but we're talking about different things. I think Bernardini has a beautiful, effortless motion, but if he looks different when hooked, it will hardly change my opinion of him. I don't love him just because of his mechanics. In any case, Bernardini can't win for losing. If he beats horses easily, even a top field in the Classic, it won't prove anything because he was too good? In order to prove himself, it would be better if he were less talented?

Originally Posted by pgardn

Better than Mineshaft no way in hell. Not yet. NO flippin way. Way premature. And who cares about how early he shows his stuff besides people that want to win IMMEDIATELY, which of course one of the WORST possible things for this sport. Cmon Joel C.
Heart of Tiznow??????????

WTF. You have to be challenged. Good lord, the supposition is amazing. Your making me want this horse to fold up like a garage sale lawn chair, and I really like the horse.

Sorry man, he's better than Mineshaft...I know he has to prove it by his race record to justify it to those who can't decipher between the talent of the two - but I knew when I saw him break his maiden, win the Withers and then improve around two turns by running away in the Preakness in just his 4th lifetime start - I knew he was better than Mineshaft...you can just see it if you know how to judge horse talent....

BTW, he probably won't have to be as game as Tiznow in his career IMO....some brave horses like Tiznow look brave on a frequent basis because they like to wait on there competition to come to them and then re-accelerate....Bernardini doesn't hang, he runs the race his rider asks of him and doesn't need the competition to fire...that is the ultimate sign of class IMO....don't blame him for not being hooked yet becasue it is unlikely that happens much in his career....he is just too fast and he will frequently run away from his challengers in the stretch....I would bet anything that if he encounters a challenger that is actually fast enough to hook him - which I believe to be unlikely - he will respond with the same class of a champion he has shown in every other aspect of his racing career to this point IMO

[Betsy]

Originally Posted by kentuckyrosesinmay

Betsy, IMO, he'll show a lot of guts when he is challenged. I mean, look at the expression on his face when he runs. He has one of the meanest looks of any horse that I have ever seen while running. He is fierce. He always has those ears pinned back, and that eyeball turned backward daring for a horse to come close to him in the stretch even though the other horses are lengths back. He is also one of the best galloping horses that I have seen. His stride is so rhymical, powerful, and fluid.

And you basically read my mind on those other questions that you asked. However, I think that he will be challenged sometime or another in a race. Some people will always criticize Bernardini for one reason or another no matter what he does...Personally, I think that he is fantastic.

I also think he'll show his class and heart in battle (no big surprise there) - he seems to be an extremely competitive horse. He'll be in a real dogfight in the Classic - big field, tough and talented older horses- if he wins, whether it's easily or by a nose, he'll have earned it. I really am sorry that Invasor won't be in the Gold Cup ; I'd like to see Sun King in the race or even Wandering Boy. In any case, Saturday is going to be fun; I'll finally get to see him up close and in person

[kentuckyrosesinmay]

Originally Posted by Betsy

I also think he'll show his class and heart in battle (no big surprise there) - he seems to be an extremely competitive horse. He'll be in a real dogfight in the Classic - big field, tough and talented older horses- if he wins, whether it's easily or by a nose, he'll have earned it. I really am sorry that Invasor won't be in the Gold Cup ; I'd like to see Sun King in the race or even Wandering Boy. In any case, Saturday is going to be fun; I'll finally get to see him up close and in person

I envy you Betsy. I have to wait until Nov. 4th to see him.