Lava Man back in training?

[King Glorious]

Is there going to be a lot of negative publicity regarding the injury and retirement of Better Talk Now? He is older than Lava Man, at least as high profile and probably higher, especially on a national stage, and has had arguably as prolific a career. Were his owners trying to squeeze the lemon dry with him too? I mean, he hadn't won a race since June of 2007 and was on a 12-race losing streak. If racing is more dangerous for Lava Man because he's nine, wouldn't it be even moreso for 10yo BTN? The worry for people is that Lava Man could POSSIBLY get injured. Well, BTN actually DID get injured. Let's see what kind of negative publicity we get here. I'm guessing there will be none.

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by King Glorious

Is there going to be a lot of negative publicity regarding the injury and retirement of Better Talk Now? He is older than Lava Man, at least as high profile and probably higher, especially on a national stage, and has had arguably as prolific a career. Were his owners trying to squeeze the lemon dry with him too? I mean, he hadn't won a race since June of 2007 and was on a 12-race losing streak. If racing is more dangerous for Lava Man because he's nine, wouldn't it be even moreso for 10yo BTN? The worry for people is that Lava Man could POSSIBLY get injured. Well, BTN actually DID get injured. Let's see what kind of negative publicity we get here. I'm guessing there will be none.

Seriously? Better talk Now was never retired due to injuries, announced to be retiring to Old Friends and suddenly 180 degreed back to the track after a years layoff. If BTN's owners decided to do experimental therapy on him and return him to training the same amount of skeptism would greet them as well.
If you fail to see the differences then nothing we post will help you.

Posts like this and others in this thread make me understand why Andy doesnt bother much anymore.

[The Indomitable DrugS]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

Seriously? Better talk Now was never retired due to injuries, announced to be retiring to Old Friends and suddenly 180 degreed back to the track after a years layoff.

I thought Lava Man's retirement was due to the owners thinking he wasn't competitive at the top anymore.

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by The Indomitable DrugS

I thought Lava Man's retirement was due to the owners thinking he wasn't competitive at the top anymore.

He wasnt competitive because he was lame. It was announced when he was originally retired that his xrays has shown "marked" changes from earlier in the year. If he wasnt lame what was he doing at Alamo Pintado Equine Medical Center undergoing treatment, supposedly to be retired? If he was lame enough not to be able to simply be retired to a field....well you figure out the rest. Hell you of all people should know you have to read between the lines with these damn racing writers!

[The Indomitable DrugS]

Originally Posted by Sightseek

This kind of contradicts your earlier statement above about keeping him on a short leash don't you think?

It doesn't because I think it's always been that way with him.

Maybe the chances go up even a little more as his age gets older ... but the horse has made improbable stunning form reversals on three different occasions before in his career ... it doesn't take much to be a top horse out there now .. let alone a top Cal bred.

Sure - I would bet against him rising to be a top horse out there ... but I would have done the same the three prior times he did.

It's probably a good thing if the connections are having their motives questioned and people want to call them out .. and assume the worst will probably happen. It will put pressure on them to be realistic if things don't seem to be going rosy.

[King Glorious]

Originally Posted by The Indomitable DrugS

I thought Lava Man's retirement was due to the owners thinking he wasn't competitive at the top anymore.

It wasn't injury.

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by King Glorious

It wasn't injury.

Of course it was. LOL. If it wasnt then why did he need all these treatments?

[freddymo]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

Some people read about things, some people actually do things. I prefer to listen to the latter.

That is the problem with school Chuck, you have to send your kids to learn from teachers or professors that make then read and study about subjects. I always thought school was a good idea but I guess we should send the kids to do'ers.. You crack me up. While your point is somewhat valid, and completely logical, you blur it.

Riot,what Chuck really means is he recognizes that you have done a fair amount of exploratory research on the subject of stem cell research. While its hard to designate your posts as hardcore scientific facts certainly the new procedures ultimately maybe more promising then others in the past that have come and gone. While Riot clearly has a rudimentry understanding on the topic, I do as well and I think that given the horses age(which really is very stereotypical to his health value) stem cell theraphy is most likely too much too late to have the desired effect.

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by freddymo

That is the problem with school Chuck, you have to send your kids to learn from teachers or professors that make then read and study about subjects. I always thought school was a good idea but I guess we should send the kids to do'ers.. You crack me up. While your point is somewhat valid, and completely logical, you blur it.

Riot,what Chuck really means is he recognizes that you have done a fair amount of exploratory research on the subject of stem cell research. While its hard to designate your posts as hardcore scientific facts certainly the new procedures ultimately maybe more promising then others in the past that have come and gone. While Riot clearly has a rudimentry understanding on the topic, I do as well and I think that given the horses age(which really is very stereotypical to his health value) stem cell theraphy is most likely too much too late to have the desired effect.

No freddy my point is that I prefer the opinions of the people actually working on the horses. You know the ones that write the books.

[richard]

O'Neil's insistance on running Square Eddie in the Kentucky Derby really put the focus on his priorities . Namely, he'll take ill advised chances with a horse's health to get him to race . Fortunately, Square Eddie was scratched from the derby . Has he raced since ? Now O'Neil is rolling the dice again with Lava Man .

[Cannon Shell]

O'Neill doesnt own the horse.

[The Indomitable DrugS]

Originally Posted by richard

O'Neil's insistance on running Square Eddie in the Kentucky Derby really put the focus on his priorities . Namely, he'll take ill advised chances with a horse's health to get him to race . Fortunately, Square Eddie was scratched from the derby . Has he raced since ? Now O'Neil is rolling the dice again with Lava Man .

What happened with Square Eddie was just nuts .. I certainly wouldn't have rushed him back and taken a shot with him if I owned him... I'd have been conservative with all signs pointing to a likely very weak 3yo male division out west after the triple crown series.

I think it had to be a case of an owner of questionable competence and a case of Derby fever.

O'Neill has made so many brazenly dumb moves with horses owned by that owner ... that it seems pretty doubtful he's the one calling the shots.

Someone who claimed Lava Man has probably built up Moss like confidence in him by now - and all they need is a vet to tell them what they want to hear - and once that happens .. surely equine Jesus can rise again.

Hard for me to blame an owner for doing something I probably would in his position.

[Sightseek]

Square Eddie worked the other day...perhaps he can still make the Classic.

[prudery]

Originally Posted by King Glorious

It wasn't injury.

Yes it WAS injury, and an injury can contribute or reflect lack of competitiveness--duh ...

I am re-schooling a young horse that was made less competitive for riding because his professional trainer insisting on pushing him when he had lyme disease and was very body sore ...

Was it any surprise that he refused at times to move at all after that, and lost his work ethic---same deal ...

After Lava Man's last race, he was x-rayed and significant changes were found in his ankles ... Whatever else--like his feet--was wrong was never detailed ...

But since bone chips were removed, you can be assured that some injury/trauma ocurred ..

If KG meant he was not retired because of a breakdown, that is true, but it is also true that degenerative damage is a slower but not less significant variety of breakdown ..

His physical issues seemed to be chronic as well--he did not leave the track because he didn't have the competitve spirit, he left because the sports equipment was wearing out ...

The stem cell therapy has corrected this to a degree, but there is NO way to determine future soundness under stress---NO WAY ..

[The Indomitable DrugS]

He was beaten a neck and 3.5 lengths at the Grade 1 level in his final two starts ... on his 2nd best surface. That's not my idea of being uncompetitive when you're talking about a Cal Bred.

I realize he's not going to find dirt out there - and for whatever reason - he can't beat a goat, or crack an 82 Beyer when he ships out of So Cal so ... shipping to where there is dirt won't help.

Besides fooling me a couple of times ... this is a horse that I think litterally might have ruined a trainers life.

I had a laptop when Lonnie Arturburn was around and had his lifetime form pulled up ... because I like to mess with people... and he's a pretty cool guy.

The guy gets fat breeder bonus checks from the horse so I assumed he still was rooting for him. He was having a total meltdown looking at the form and I can assure you he's no fan of that horse.

You would think the horse knifed him in the back or something - and the look on his face and seeing him shaking was scary. Scary enough that I couldn't laugh at some of the nonsense coming out of his mouth if I tried to.

[Merlinsky]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

He wasnt competitive because he was lame. It was announced when he was originally retired that his xrays has shown "marked" changes from earlier in the year. If he wasnt lame what was he doing at Alamo Pintado Equine Medical Center undergoing treatment, supposedly to be retired? If he was lame enough not to be able to simply be retired to a field....well you figure out the rest. Hell you of all people should know you have to read between the lines with these damn racing writers!

I wanted to ask a question that I haven't heard about, but I'm sure the stem cell treatment wasn't cheap. What kind of bucks are we talking about and couldn't you argue that financially it's just not worth it? Even if he comes back, how well does he have to do to break even? It won't be the same level of insurance money as a stallion--LM's value as a gelding is while racing, not while out to pasture at Old Friends. It has to cost money to insure him though so that's even more money they have to spend to get him back, not just trainer fees (going to charity but they're still paying it).

I'm not accusing anybody of anything. I realize that's what it sounds like when you mention insurance money, but what I mean is I don't think you put a horse through the stem cell treatment for warm fuzzies. They weren't saying he was super miserable in retirement (or whatever limbo he was in), they just said he was happier in training. That raises the question of how they expect to make enough money to make this whole thing worth it when they could invest it elsewhere.

[Danzig]

Originally Posted by Merlinsky

I wanted to ask a question that I haven't heard about, but I'm sure the stem cell treatment wasn't cheap. What kind of bucks are we talking about and couldn't you argue that financially it's just not worth it? Even if he comes back, how well does he have to do to break even? It won't be the same level of insurance money as a stallion--LM's value as a gelding is while racing, not while out to pasture at Old Friends. It has to cost money to insure him though so that's even more money they have to spend to get him back, not just trainer fees (going to charity but they're still paying it).

I'm not accusing anybody of anything. I realize that's what it sounds like when you mention insurance money, but what I mean is I don't think you put a horse through the stem cell treatment for warm fuzzies. They weren't saying he was super miserable in retirement (or whatever limbo he was in), they just said he was happier in training. That raises the question of how they expect to make enough money to make this whole thing worth it when they could invest it elsewhere.

they may not have had to pay a penny, if whoever wants to promote this treatment just wanted a candidate to show it could be done.

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by Merlinsky

I wanted to ask a question that I haven't heard about, but I'm sure the stem cell treatment wasn't cheap. What kind of bucks are we talking about and couldn't you argue that financially it's just not worth it? Even if he comes back, how well does he have to do to break even? It won't be the same level of insurance money as a stallion--LM's value as a gelding is while racing, not while out to pasture at Old Friends. It has to cost money to insure him though so that's even more money they have to spend to get him back, not just trainer fees (going to charity but they're still paying it).

I'm not accusing anybody of anything. I realize that's what it sounds like when you mention insurance money, but what I mean is I don't think you put a horse through the stem cell treatment for warm fuzzies. They weren't saying he was super miserable in retirement (or whatever limbo he was in), they just said he was happier in training. That raises the question of how they expect to make enough money to make this whole thing worth it when they could invest it elsewhere.

I doubt he is insured

[Danzig]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

I doubt he is insured

wouldn't they find insurance difficult at this point? or cost-prohibitive...

[Sightseek]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

I doubt he is insured

I was going to ask on this because my friend has her show horse insured, but he is off the track because of a leg injury and that leg is omitted from the policy...would a company write for a horse that has undergone aggressive therapy?