When "Neighborhood Watch" Gets Out of Hand

[Danzig]

Originally Posted by Rupert Pupkin

Anyone can keep a close eye on their neighborhood and act as a neighborhood watch. Some neighborhoods have official neighborhood watches that are very well organized and people actually work shifts. In other neighborhoods, it may be less organized where people just do it when they have time.

I have no idea what the arrangement was in this case. It seems that Zimmerman had been doing it for a while. I think they said he had called police around 45 times over the last year. I would assume that he did the informal neighborhood watch with the blessing of his neighbors. We will see if any evidence comes out that his neighbors didn't want him doing this and they saw him as being overzealous and/or harassing people.

I would agree with you that neighborhood watch programs do not encourage vigilantism. They want people to call the police. They don't want people carrying guns and chasing people.

But all that being said, if the verbal altercation was over and Zimmerman was attacked as he was walking back to his car, I don't think there is much of a case against him.

You are the first person that I've heard say that there was no indication of a scuffle. If that is what the evidence shows (that there was no scuffle), then they should have a good case against Zimmerman.

the funeral director said there was no sign on martins body to indicate a fight of any kind.

and i've also heard the claim that zimmerman used the word 'coon' as a racial epithet on the 911 call. one of his friends went on t.v. and tried to say no, he said 'goon'. yeah, ok. i'd imagine it's based on that comment that many are saying it was racially motivated.

[Rupert Pupkin]

Originally Posted by GenuineRisk

Now three experts in voice recognition are saying they are certain the screams on the 911 calls are not Zimmerman's:

http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/n...0,250481.story

Also, a second ambulance was originally called for Zimmerman (first one was for Trayvon's corpse), but then cancelled:

http://www.nydailynews.com/news/nati...#ixzz1qiRUs3nD

Which doesn't help the claim that Zimmerman was seriously injured.

I wonder how "temporary" the Sanford Police Chief's stepping down from his position is going to be.

I think Trayvon's father would know his son's voice. When they played him the tape, he said that the voice yelling for help was not Trayvon. Later he changed his mind but he likely changed his mind after he realized that it would hurt his case if he admitted that it was the other guy that was screaming for help.

I'm certainly no expert on voice recognition but I am still pretty skeptical that they could tell whether it was Zimmerman by comparing his "speaking voice" with his "screaming for help voice". Even from what the article said, it is certainly not an exact science like DNA. It will be interesting to see if any other voice recognition experts come forward and have the opposite opinion of the experts cited in the article.

It is certainly possible that Zimmerman is lying and that he is the one that initiated the physical confrontation. Then maybe when he was losing the fight, he pulled out his gun and shot Trayvon. I can't totally rule that out. If that is what happened then that would not be self-defense. That would probably be manslaughter. But even if that is what happened, they still have to prove it. They have to come up with some evidence that shows that Zimmerman's version of what happened is false.

[Rupert Pupkin]

Originally Posted by Danzig

the funeral director said there was no sign on martins body to indicate a fight of any kind.

and i've also heard the claim that zimmerman used the word 'coon' as a racial epithet on the 911 call. one of his friends went on t.v. and tried to say no, he said 'goon'. yeah, ok. i'd imagine it's based on that comment that many are saying it was racially motivated.

There is no evidence that Zimmerman got any punches in. Nobody has claimed that Zimmerman punched Trayvon. The claim is that Trayvon punched Zimmerman a few times and banged Zimmerman's head on the ground. I wouldn't expect Trayvon to have any bruises.

I've never punched anyone before. Does it leave bruises on your knuckle if you punch someone a few times? If so, did the funeral director really examine Trayvon's knuckles that closely? He's the funeral director. He's not a medical examiner doing an autopsy. I highly doubt that he examined Trayvon's knuckles, and even if he did, I highly doubt that he has the expertise to be able to tell you whether Trayvon punched someone a few times.

[Danzig]

Originally Posted by Rupert Pupkin

I think Trayvon's father would know his son's voice. When they played him the tape, he said that the voice yelling for help was not Trayvon. Later he changed his mind but he likely changed his mind after he realized that it would hurt his case if he admitted that it was the other guy that was screaming for help.

I'm certainly no expert on voice recognition but I am still pretty skeptical that they could tell whether it was Zimmerman by comparing his "speaking voice" with his "screaming for help voice". Even from what the article said, it is certainly not an exact science like DNA. It will be interesting to see if any other voice recognition experts come forward and have the opposite opinion of the experts cited in the article.

It is certainly possible that Zimmerman is lying and that he is the one that initiated the physical confrontation. Then maybe when he was losing the fight, he pulled out his gun and shot Trayvon. I can't totally rule that out. If that is what happened then that would not be self-defense. That would probably be manslaughter. But even if that is what happened, they still have to prove it. They have to come up with some evidence that shows that Zimmerman's version of what happened is false.

just saw a headline this morning that the voice recognition guy said the screams weren't zimmerman.
and of course he will say trayvon attacked him-he just killed someone. you think he's not going to say he was defending himself?? the fact is had he not gotten out of his car and gone after him-which is what they told him not to do-we wouldn't be having this conversation. he had no reason to get out of the car, he had no reason or right to confront trayvon. on what basis did he accost the boy? and exactly what did he think he was going to accomplish by approaching a total stranger-with him having absolutely no authority to do so. even if he were a member of neighborhood watch-note the name. WATCH. no, try to emulate clint eastwood.
put yourself in trayvons shoes. you're walking home, with skittles and a drink. some guy is following you, which freaks you out. the guy's not a cop, not in a cop car, not a security guy. just a total stranger.

[Danzig]

read the article, actually two different voice experts said the voice yelling 'help' was not zimmerman.

here's this:

http://www.nydailynews.com/news/nati...icle-1.1053821

note where it says police video shows no evidence of any injury to zimmerman.

[DaTruth]

Now why would someone at NBC do this?

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/...g.html?hpid=z6

[Danzig]

Originally Posted by DaTruth

Now why would someone at NBC do this?

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/...g.html?hpid=z6

why would they do what? edit the conversation to misinform or project a point of view, or do the investigation? the former is reprehensible (and happens far too often, in far too many situations), the latter is a good move.

[somerfrost]

Originally Posted by Danzig

why would they do what? edit the conversation to misinform or project a point of view, or do the investigation? the former is reprehensible (and happens far too often, in far too many situations), the latter is a good move.

More likely a case of lazy journalism, see it all too often on networks.

[DaTruth]

Originally Posted by somerfrost

More likely a case of lazy journalism, see it all too often on networks.

It isn't lazy journalism is if it was done intentionally.

[Rupert Pupkin]

Originally Posted by Danzig

read the article, actually two different voice experts said the voice yelling 'help' was not zimmerman.

here's this:

http://www.nydailynews.com/news/nati...icle-1.1053821

note where it says police video shows no evidence of any injury to zimmerman.

I read the article about the voice experts. That is what I was referring to in that post. Genuine Risk had posted a link to that article and I was responding to it.

With regard to some media outlets saying that the police video shows no evidence of injury to Zimmerman, that is their interpretation of the video. Other media outlets have said the exact opposite about the video. I think you can clearly see evidence of injury to the back of Zimmerman's head on the video. Check out the still photo:
http://dailycaller.com/2012/03/29/po...w-head-injury/

One of the officers said it was bad enough that he thought Zimmerman was going to need several stitches to close it.

[Rupert Pupkin]

Originally Posted by Danzig

just saw a headline this morning that the voice recognition guy said the screams weren't zimmerman.
and of course he will say trayvon attacked him-he just killed someone. you think he's not going to say he was defending himself?? the fact is had he not gotten out of his car and gone after him-which is what they told him not to do-we wouldn't be having this conversation. he had no reason to get out of the car, he had no reason or right to confront trayvon. on what basis did he accost the boy? and exactly what did he think he was going to accomplish by approaching a total stranger-with him having absolutely no authority to do so. even if he were a member of neighborhood watch-note the name. WATCH. no, try to emulate clint eastwood.
put yourself in trayvons shoes. you're walking home, with skittles and a drink. some guy is following you, which freaks you out. the guy's not a cop, not in a cop car, not a security guy. just a total stranger.

He probably got out his car and followed on foot because he wanted to be able to tell the police where Trayvon was when they got there. Trayvon had left the street and had gone down a grass path. Zimmerman would have lost him at that point if he didn't follow him on foot.

We don't know if Zimmerman had any intention of confronting Trayvon in any way. What may have happened is when he ran after Trayvon down the grass and then turned the corner, he found himself face to face with him. Zimmerman may have never planned on coming face to face with him.

I agree with you that it is possible that Zimmerman was the one who started the physical altercation. I can't sit here and tell you for sure that Zimmerman is telling the truth and that Trayvon attacked him first. Zimmerman could be lying. I haven't ruled that out. To answer your question about what justification Zimmerman had to attack Trayvon, if Zimmerman did in fact attack Trayvon first, I would say Zimmerman would have no justification. If that was how it happened, then Zimmerman is probably guilty of manslaughter.

I agree with you that Trayvon was probably scared or at least concerned when he saw some stranger following him. We will probably never know exactly what was said between the two of him. They say that Trayvon asked Zimmerman, "Why are you following me?" They say Zmmerman asked, "What are you doing here?" I wonder if Trayvon ever told him that he was simply going to his father's house. I wonder if Zimmerman ever told Trayvon that he was simply doing a neighborhood watch.

[jms62]

Originally Posted by Rupert Pupkin

He probably got out his car and followed on foot because he wanted to be able to tell the police where Trayvon was when they got there. Trayvon had left the street and had gone down a grass path. Zimmerman would have lost him at that point if he didn't follow him on foot.

We don't know if Zimmerman had any intention of confronting Trayvon in any way. What may have happened is when he ran after Trayvon down the grass and then turned the corner, he found himself face to face with him. Zimmerman may have never planned on coming face to face with him.

I agree with you that it is possible that Zimmerman was the one who started the physical altercation. I can't sit here and tell you for sure that Zimmerman is telling the truth and that Trayvon attacked him first. Zimmerman could be lying. I haven't ruled that out. To answer your question about what justification Zimmerman had to attack Trayvon, if Zimmerman did in fact attack Trayvon first, I would say Zimmerman would have no justification. If that was how it happened, then Zimmerman is probably guilty of manslaughter.

I agree with you that Trayvon was probably scared or at least concerned when he saw some stranger following him. We will probably never know exactly what was said between the two of him. They say that Trayvon asked Zimmerman, "Why are you following me?" They say Zmmerman asked, "What are you doing here?" I wonder if Trayvon ever told him that he was simply going to his father's house. I wonder if Zimmerman ever told Trayvon that he was simply doing a neighborhood watch.

Dispatcher told him specifically NOT TO FOLLOW. Anything that happend after that conversation would make him the agressor if I were on the jury.

[Riot]

Originally Posted by Rupert Pupkin

He probably got out his car and followed on foot because he wanted to be able to tell the police where Trayvon was when they got there.

What the hell? This American citizen wasn't doing anything illegal. Are we no longer allowed to walk in our neighborhoods without Zimmermans' permission? He was walking while black. Period.

I don't give a damn what happened or what was said when Zimmerman decided to intrude upon this boy, or what happened when Trayvon defended himself from an attack by a stranger: Zimmerman killed this boy with deadly force for no reason. "Fear of his life" - in a fist fight? With a one-hundred pound weight advantage?

The police are supposed to protect us from being randomly killed by fellow crazy citizens.

Their investigation stunk. Now others have taken that over. Thank god.

[Danzig]

Originally Posted by jms62

Dispatcher told him specifically NOT TO FOLLOW. Anything that happend after that conversation would make him the agressor if I were on the jury.

that's right. but then rupert keeps talking about neighborhood watch-the guy wasn't a member of nw.
i think all of us can imagine being in trayvons shoes. zimmerman had no business approaching him or questioning him. it wasn't his place, and the kid was doing nothing wrong. since when is walking down the street a sign of wrongdoing?? and you better believe if i thought some nut was following me i'd try to lose him too. poor trayvon, behaving normally gets him killed because some guy doesn't behave normally.

[Riot]

Originally Posted by Danzig

that's right. but then rupert keeps talking about neighborhood watch-the guy wasn't a member of nw.
i think all of us can imagine being in trayvons shoes. zimmerman had no business approaching him or questioning him. it wasn't his place, and the kid was doing nothing wrong. since when is walking down the street a sign of wrongdoing??

It doesn't matter if this Zimmerman was an "official" member of a neighborhood watch or not. You don't gain any special dispensations whatsoever by being a member of a neighborhood watch.

If Zimmerman was indeed an "official" member of a neighborhood watch, and thus "trained" in NW, that makes it far worse: he's carrying a gun and pursuing innocent citizens with deadly force.

And again: watching the videotape, as Zimmerman walks around the garage and into booking (another room with good light), there are multiple views, and there is no head wound or facial wounds on Zimmerman, and zero blood, grass, dirt, dampness either the front or back or sides of his coat and tee shirt he was wearing at the time.

[Rupert Pupkin]

Originally Posted by Riot

What the hell? This American citizen wasn't doing anything illegal. Are we no longer allowed to walk in our neighborhoods without Zimmermans' permission? He was walking while black. Period.

I don't give a damn what happened or what was said when Zimmerman decided to intrude upon this boy, or what happened when Trayvon defended himself from an attack by a stranger: Zimmerman killed this boy with deadly force for no reason. "Fear of his life" - in a fist fight? With a one-hundred pound weight advantage?

The police are supposed to protect us from being randomly killed by fellow crazy citizens.

Their investigation stunk. Now others have taken that over. Thank god.

Are you sure Zimmerman didn't have a 200 pound weight advantage? Do you believe everything you read? There is no way in hell that Zimmerman had anything close to a 100 pound weight advantage. I know some media outlets reported that. That is absurd. He's lucky if he weighed 30 pounds more.

It's irrelevant what Zimmerman weighed in his mug shot from 2005. He was much heavier in that picture. He may have weighed well over 200 pounds in that picture but not any more. He is 5"9 inches. You saw him on the video. He is 5"9. How much do you think he weighs? He couldn't weigh more than 180 pounds. The reports on Trayvon are that he was anywhere between 6"0 and 6"3 and anywhere between 140 pounds and 175 pounds. Let's compromise and say he weighed 155 pounds. Does Zimmerman who is 5"9 look like he weighs 255 pounds to you in the video?

With regard to fear for your life or fear of great bodily harm from a fist fight, people get killed or seriously injured in fist fights all the time. Just off the top of my head, I could give you several stories from just the past year:

http://www.cbsnews.com/2100-500164_162-20077324.html

http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/lano...ther-girl.html

What about the guy at the Dodger game that ended up in a coma from being beaten up? Thousands of people have been killed or gravely injured in fist fights.

[Riot]

Originally Posted by Rupert Pupkin

Are you sure Zimmerman didn't have a 200 pound weight advantage? Do you believe everything you read? There is no way in hell that Zimmerman had anything close to a 100 pound weight advantage. I know some media outlets reported that. That is absurd. He's lucky if he weighed 30 pounds more.

I'm going by what the Sanford Police Department and the mortician reported.

Zimmerman had no right to pursue, attack and kill this boy just because he was black.

[Rupert Pupkin]

Originally Posted by Riot

I'm going by what the Sanford Police Department and the mortician reported.

Zimmerman had no right to pursue, attack and kill this boy just because he was black.

Do you have any reason to believe that Zimmerman would not have followed Trayvon if Trayvon was Latino? If not, then I don't know why you keep saying that Zimmerman followed him because he was black.

[Rupert Pupkin]

Originally Posted by jms62

Dispatcher told him specifically NOT TO FOLLOW. Anything that happend after that conversation would make him the agressor if I were on the jury.

Fair enough. I can appreciate your point of view. But let me ask you one question. This is just a hypothetical question. If you were on the jury and there was clear evidence that Trayvon and Zimmerman had some words such as the things we have read: Trayvon: "Why are you following me?" Zimmerman: What are you doing here?" Then the conversation was over. Zimmerman walks away and is heading back to his car. Trayvon attacks him from behind and knocks him to the ground.

If you believed that is what happened, how would you vote if you were on the jury? I'm only giving a hypothetical. I'm not saying that this was how the incident went down. I'm just asking you hypothetically if you knew for sure that this was what happened, how would you vote if you were on the jury?

[Rupert Pupkin]

Originally Posted by Riot

I'm going by what the Sanford Police Department and the mortician reported.

Zimmerman had no right to pursue, attack and kill this boy just because he was black.

Here is the police report right here. Trayvon is listed as 6"0 tall and 160 pounds. Zimmerman is listed as 5"9 but it does not tell his weight. I think we can make a pretty good educated guess as to what his weight is from the video. I would guess 175 pounds. What is the most he could possibly weigh? You have seen the video. Could he weigh 210 pounds? I would say there is no way, but even if he does, that would only make him 50 pounds heavier. It just shows you how many completely erroneous reports there are out there. Some in the media have claimed he weighed 100 pounds more.

http://blogs.chicagotribune.com/news...e-reports.html