12/26-27 (SA): Malibu, La Brea, Oaks (G1's); Frankel (G3), Logan

[Kasept]

[cakes44]

Storm the Court needs an allowance race, like real bad, unless they are planning on retiring him.

[RolloTomasi]

Originally Posted by cakes44

Storm the Court needs an allowance race, like real bad, unless they are planning on retiring him.

Yep, although I would even say that the Malibu would have been a better spot than the Mathis Brothers. He'd get a cutback (I think he won his only sprint start with a rider on his back) and a hot pace. Even if he had little shot on the win end, he might actually have finished with some interest for once.

All in all, Santa Anita has really blown it with their stakes schedule. The Malibu should have had a full field. Horses like Storm the Court, Idol, Kiss Today Goodbye, Strongconstitution and some off-the-turf types would have been in that spot in previous years, especially when the entire Strub series was still in existence. Now there are too many options with the Mathis Brothers and the San Antonio on the same card.

[King Glorious]

I was trying but failed to understand why the announcers were pointing out that Idol would be the first 3yo to win the San Antonio and pointing out that the race has been run since 1935. I don't know the history of the race before 1986 but as far as I knew, it was always a race for 4yo and up. It wasn't until the last few years that they moved it to the end of December and made it for 3yo and up.

Anyway, Kiss Today Goodbye took it in an upset. I thought Idol might be done around the turn but he fought on well and came back to run second.

[RolloTomasi]

Originally Posted by King Glorious

I was trying but failed to understand why the announcers were pointing out that Idol would be the first 3yo to win the San Antonio and pointing out that the race has been run since 1935. I don't know the history of the race before 1986 but as far as I knew, it was always a race for 4yo and up. It wasn't until the last few years that they moved it to the end of December and made it for 3yo and up.

Anyway, Kiss Today Goodbye took it in an upset. I thought Idol might be done around the turn but he fought on well and came back to run second.

The announcers don't actually follow the sport as far as I can tell and even if they did, Santa Anita is so schizophrenic with their stakes schedule that it would be hard to keep track anyways. This was only the 4th edition of the San Antonio run on this spot on the calendar.

The traditional Big Cap series was the San Pasqual (8.5f, mid-Jan); San Antonio (9f, early Feb); Big Cap (10f, early Mar). The geniuses at the Stronach Group decided they needed a cross-country prep for their bloated Pegasus Faux Cup and inexplicably plucked out the San Antonio and pushed it back to December and shortened it.

Why they didn't simply move the San Pasqual which was already 8.5f and only a couple of weeks past opening day is one for the record books IMO.

At any rate, good to know that most of the horses I mentioned in my earlier post were indeed in top form and should have run in the Malibu.

[King Glorious]

We were deprived of a Triple Crown winner this year. Charlatan is a really, really good horse.

[RolloTomasi]

Originally Posted by King Glorious

We were deprived of a Triple Crown winner this year. Charlatan is a really, really good horse.

You continue to be overly enamored by these sprinters simply because they prove to be able to sit the garden trip in small fields rather than being one dimensional frontrunners.

This 7f win proves Charlatan was capable of winning the Triple Crown as much as Gamine's 7f BC proved she was HOY...

Nashville looked nearly as bad as Princess Noor did in the BC.

[King Glorious]

Originally Posted by RolloTomasi

You continue to be overly enamored by these sprinters simply because they prove to be able to sit the garden trip in small fields rather than being one dimensional frontrunners.

This 7f win proves Charlatan was capable of winning the Triple Crown as much as Gamine's 7f BC proved she was HOY...

Nashville looked nearly as bad as Princess Noor did in the BC.

Going back to last April, had they run the Derby in May, Charlatan would have been no worse than second choice and had won at 9f just like the other top 3yo's had. But now, he's just a sprinter?

I don't only consider horses that run at longer distances to be the best horses. Usain Bolt was the best in the world at running races even though I don't think he'd have had a chance at a mile.

[freddymo]

Originally Posted by RolloTomasi

You continue to be overly enamored by these sprinters simply because they prove to be able to sit the garden trip in small fields rather than being one dimensional frontrunners.

This 7f win proves Charlatan was capable of winning the Triple Crown as much as Gamine's 7f BC proved she was HOY...

Nashville looked nearly as bad as Princess Noor did in the BC.

And the fig is coming back strong

[RolloTomasi]

Originally Posted by King Glorious

Going back to last April, had they run the Derby in May, Charlatan would have been no worse than second choice and had won at 9f just like the other top 3yo's had. But now, he's just a sprinter?

Charlatan didn't qualify for the Kentucky Derby, was just an allowance in winner with 2 starts under his belt in April, and has never won a 9 furlong race.

Until today, the only subsequent wins produced from that division of the Arkansas Derby were allowance wins at Ellis Park, Penn National, and Charlestown.

I don't only consider horses that run at longer distances to be the best horses. Usain Bolt was the best in the world at running races even though I don't think he'd have had a chance at a mile.

You're more likely to see a route horse make a mess of a sprinter while sprinting than the reverse. In fact if you want to call Charlatan more than a sprinter at this point he just proved the case.

[King Glorious]

Originally Posted by RolloTomasi

Charlatan didn't qualify for the Kentucky Derby, was just an allowance in winner with 2 starts under his belt in April, and has never won a 9 furlong race.

Until today, the only subsequent wins produced from that division of the Arkansas Derby were allowance wins at Ellis Park, Penn National, and Charlestown.


You're more likely to see a route horse make a mess of a sprinter while sprinting than the reverse. In fact if you want to call Charlatan more than a sprinter at this point he just proved the case.

Excuse me. I was thinking of the usual times and the Arkansas Derby is in April. You knew what I meant.

[blackthroatedwind]

Originally Posted by King Glorious

We were deprived of a Triple Crown winner this year. Charlatan is a really, really good horse.

This is low quality trolling.

If nothing else, Charlatan proved in the Arkansas Derby he is not a superior distance horse. Up to one mile, however, is a different story.

[Dahoss]

Anyone catch the post race Malibu interview?

If you did there should be no guess as to why people dislike Baffert

[King Glorious]

Originally Posted by blackthroatedwind

This is low quality trolling.

If nothing else, Charlatan proved in the Arkansas Derby he is not a superior distance horse. Up to one mile, however, is a different story.

There's an old story about two guys being chased by a bear. One guys says to the other "you're not faster than a bear." The other guy responds, "I don't have to be faster than a bear, I just need to be faster than you."

If you want to argue that Charlatan is not as good a distance horse as some of the top ones of the past, that's a fair argument. If you want to argue that in the Arkansas Derby, he didn't prove that he was a superior distance horse, we could have that debate. But then are you going to tell me that Authentic proved he was a superior distance horse in the Haskell? We know what he did later. So Charlatan wouldn't have had to prove he was superior to Secretariat. Just superior to Authentic, Tiz the Law, and Swiss Skydiver. Nothing I've seen from him tells me he couldn't beat them.

[RolloTomasi]

Originally Posted by King Glorious

Excuse me. I was thinking of the usual times and the Arkansas Derby is in April. You knew what I meant.

Right, but that's just the point.

Charlatan proved that he had neither the stamina nor the soundness to win the Triple Crown.

He was unable to run at 2 to be a legit contender in a normal year and even with the Derby in September he couldn't hold together long enough to make the race.

To say this 7f win in a 6-horse field off a 7 month layoff proves he would have won at 10f, 9.5f, and 12f against full fields in a span of 5 weeks ignores all other requisite qualities of a champion Thoroughbred aside from Brilliance.

[Alabama Stakes]

Last 1/8 in 12.95 not exactly flying home

[Dahoss]

Originally Posted by Alabama Stakes

Last 1/8 in 12.95 not exactly flying home

What figure are you going to assign the winner?

[Dahoss]

Originally Posted by King Glorious

There's an old story about two guys being chased by a bear. One guys says to the other "you're not faster than a bear." The other guy responds, "I don't have to be faster than a bear, I just need to be faster than you."

If you want to argue that Charlatan is not as good a distance horse as some of the top ones of the past, that's a fair argument. If you want to argue that in the Arkansas Derby, he didn't prove that he was a superior distance horse, we could have that debate. But then are you going to tell me that Authentic proved he was a superior distance horse in the Haskell? We know what he did later. So Charlatan wouldn't have had to prove he was superior to Secretariat. Just superior to Authentic, Tiz the Law, and Swiss Skydiver. Nothing I've seen from him tells me he couldn't beat them.

I have a two part question. Who you got between Charlatan and Gamine?

Also did Charlatan do enough today to make you reconsider Gamine for HOY?

[King Glorious]

Originally Posted by RolloTomasi

Right, but that's just the point.

Charlatan proved that he had neither the stamina nor the soundness to win the Triple Crown.

He was unable to run at 2 to be a legit contender in a normal year and even with the Derby in September he couldn't hold together long enough to make the race.

To say this 7f win in a 6-horse field off a 7 month layoff proves he would have won at 10f, 9.5f, and 12f against full fields in a span of 5 weeks ignores all other requisite qualities of a champion Thoroughbred aside from Brilliance.

Except this year, the TC was 8f, 9.5f, and 10f and it was spread over several months.

Of course you're right if you're talking about his soundness. I'm talking strictly from a talent perspective. Blackthroatedwind uses the silly argument that he proved he wasn't a superior distance horse in the Arkansas Derby. I'm assuming here that he thinks Authentic proved he was a superior distance horse in the Haskell. Do you share that ridiculous opinion? Nobody watching that day thought that Authentic would handle another furlong well. Yet, he did. Hindsight is a wonderful thing but if you tell me that after watching Charlatan in Arkansas and Authentic in NJ that you thought Authentic was the better prospect at 10f, our opinions are further off than I thought.

[King Glorious]

Originally Posted by Dahoss

I have a two part question. Who you got between Charlatan and Gamine?

Also did Charlatan do enough today to make you reconsider Gamine for HOY?

8f or under, i'm taking Gamine. Over that, Charlatan.

No, he didn't. But I would chose him as top 3yo male.

My question for you. Who do you think is the better horse? Charlatan or Authentic? Not which one had the better year but is the better horse.