Top 5 best two-surface horses of the last 20 years

The Indomitable DrugS · #1 10-21-2009, 09:51 AM

#1. Dubai Millennium: Huge 6 length Dubai World Cup win in what certainly would have earned a Beyer figure in the 122 to 127 range. All 9 career wins coming by 2.5 lengths or more .. the excellent Slickly closest to him in victory. Only career defeat came at 12fs in the English Derby.

#2. Swain: Might be unpopular to rate so high considering he never actually won on dirt. In two dirt tries, he was 2nd beaten a nose to Silver Charm in the Dubai World Cup and 3rd beaten a length to Awesome Again and Silver Charm in the greatest Breeders Cup Classic field ever.

However, he came away from both defeats as the no doubt about it best horse on that day. In the Dubai World Cup, he had to overcome making his first start off an almost 6 month layoff at 10fs. In the Breeders Cup Classic, Dettori took him to the outside fence out of fear of making eye contact with Silver Charm. An all-time dumb ride.

Won 10 of 20 on turf and ITM in 18 of 20 including races like the Arc and BC Turf. Was 3rd to Lammtarra in the Arc as an undefeated 3yo .. made final career start in BC Classic at age 6.

#3. Singspeil: Won only career dirt start in the Dubai World Cup by just over a length while making his first start off a layoff. The 2nd place finisher Siphon won the Santa Anita Handicap by 3 lengths in his previous start with a 120 Beyer. After the loss to Singspeil - Siphon returned to America and ran Beyers of 115 and 117 in his next two starts.

Final 7 starts of Singspeil's career: Win in the Canadian International over Chief Bearhardt. 2nd in the Breeders Cup Turf. Win in the Japan Cup. Win in the Dubai World Cup. Win in the Group 1 Coronation. 4th in the King George and QE in a race won by Swain. And win in the Juddmonte International.

#4. Candy Ride: Perfect 6-for-6. Multiple Group 1 winner on turf in South America. Both wins coming by 8 lengths. In his 3rd start, he took a Group 1 getting a mile in 1:31 flat and destroying a 15 horse field.

Won his only US turf race in the American Handicap. The horse who finished 2nd came back 3 weeks later to win the Grade 1 Eddie Reed by 5 lengths. CR finished his career with a 123 Beyer thumping of Medaglia D'Oro in a race where MDO was basically allowed to make his own pace - and was just overpowered by CR on the far turn.

#5. Giant's Causeway: Won 5 straight Group 1's on turf in Europe as a 3yo. Close 2nd to Tiznow in the BC Classic in his only dirt start.

Gets slight edge over Arc winner Sakhee because I believe Tiznow was a better horse late at age 3 than he was at age 4 and Sakhee was taken to the woodshed by Street Cry in the DWC.

All of these horses started off in a different country. If you elimanted foreign horses ... you'd have a pretty sad collection. You'd almost be left talking about Hollywood Wildcat and her son War Chant. If you did a top 20, I think at least 16 or 17 would have started off in a different country.

Heck, if Horse Chestnut steals the 20 spot, Africa may have as many horses on there as the United States.

Indian Charlie · #2 10-21-2009, 10:04 AM

Gentlemen is an absolute top 5 for this one.

When he was on his game (Gentlemen), perhaps Candy Ride would be the only one on this list that might have been better, on either surface.

I'd have said Greinton too, but he was a little outside of your twenty year time frame.

I can't wait for someone to make a case here for Zenyatta.

Indian Charlie · #3 10-21-2009, 10:05 AM

I should have said DM as well as possibly better than Gentlemen, along with CR.

The Indomitable DrugS · #4 10-21-2009, 10:16 AM

Gentlemen's likely in the bottom half of my top 10 or top half of my 11 to 15. It would require too much analytical thinking for me to place him off the top of my head.

He was a super dirt horse ... imagine if he was around in Curlin's time?

His flop as the 2/5 favorite in Atto Mile hurts him though .. even though it was followed by a layoff and was basically a downward turning point in his career.

CSC · #5 10-21-2009, 10:22 AM

Off the top of my head 3 worth discussing Chester House, Dance Smartly and War Chant all showed a proficiency for both surfaces.

King Glorious · #6 10-21-2009, 10:27 AM

What do you say about Prized, who defeated Sunday Silence on the dirt then won the BC Turf in his grass debut?

Other top ones that come to mind for me include Arazi, Dayjur, Sheikh Albadou, and Raven's Pass.

Antitrust32 · #7 10-21-2009, 10:37 AM

Barbaro should Definately be on this list even if his career didnt last long.

The Indomitable DrugS · #8 10-21-2009, 10:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CSC

Off the top of my head 3 worth discussing Chester House, Dance Smartly and War Chant all showed a proficiency for both surfaces.

Chester House made four career starts on dirt and was never 1st or 2nd. Even losing to Lager at AQU. Not a great turf horse either - though he had a race or two for sure.

War Chant's biggest win on dirt was a narrow win over Archer City Slew in the San Rafeal. He beat Road to Slew in his first turf win - and won a 4 way blanket finish in his BC Mile win.

I think War Chant's dam Hollywood Wildcat is FAR more deserving. She was a beast on turf - and owns a Breeders Cup Distaff win on dirt.

I loved Dance Smartly - but her turf races weren't that impressive.

Affirmed Success is an American based horse who could make a top 20.

Balto Star beat The Tin Man on turf in the United Nations and Mineshaft on dirt in the year Mineshaft won the HOY. He was a super 3yo during the KY derby prep season. He could possibly weasel into a top 20 list.

CSC · #9 10-21-2009, 10:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Antitrust32

Barbaro should Definately be on this list even if his career didnt last long.

Considering how short his career was, definitely.

Antitrust32 · #10 10-21-2009, 10:39 AM

along with barbaro, i think Peace Rules was okay on both surfaces.

The Indomitable DrugS · #11 10-21-2009, 10:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Antitrust32

Barbaro should Definately be on this list even if his career didnt last long.

He'd have a much better chance than Peace Rules or Big Brown for a top 20.

Absolutely no way top 5 though. He buried an extremely sucky Derby field, and had narrow wins over the ultra sucky Great Point and Sharp Humor .. those were his 3 dirt wins.

His turf wins were great .. but they came as a 2yo when turf racing isn't even a thought.

The Indomitable DrugS · #12 10-21-2009, 10:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by King Glorious

What do you say about Prized, who defeated Sunday Silence on the dirt then won the BC Turf in his grass debut?

Other top ones that come to mind for me include Arazi, Dayjur, Sheikh Albadou, and Raven's Pass.

The big wins from Prized came in '89 .. but yeah, excellent on both surfaces.

Indian Charlie · #13 10-21-2009, 10:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Indomitable DrugS

Gentlemen's likely in the bottom half of my top 10 or top half of my 11 to 15. It would require too much analytical thinking for me to place him off the top of my head.

He was a super dirt horse ... imagine if he was around in Curlin's time?

His flop as the 2/5 favorite in Atto Mile hurts him though .. even though it was followed by a layoff and was basically a downward turning point in his career.

That was over a good turf course, so who knows. Combined with his downward form from that point, I'd say that race was a toss.

How about his turf stakes debut in Argentina, in which he ran 132.3?

Or his Citation win: 24 for the 1/4, 47.3 for the half, 110.3 for 3/4, and amazing 133.3 for the mile and a final time of 145.2 for 9f.

If I remember correctly, his one try over an off turf in Argentina was abysmal.

If you toss his 2 wet turf races, he has a turf record of 5 wins and a second in 6 starts, with that lone loss coming in his debut.

Indian Charlie · #14 10-21-2009, 10:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Indomitable DrugS

He'd have a much better chance than Peace Rules or Big Brown for a top 20.

Absolutely no way top 5 though. He buried an extremely sucky Derby field, and had narrow wins over the ultra sucky Great Point and Sharp Humor .. those were his 3 dirt wins.

His turf wins were great .. but they came as a 2yo when turf racing isn't even a thought.

So, by use of your illogic, the fields Barbaro beat in Fla (dirt) were better than the 'sucky' derby field he buried, since they managed to finish much closer to Barbaro?

I realize you will try to bait me with that argument until one of us dies, but dude, cmon.

CSC · #15 10-21-2009, 10:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Indomitable DrugS

I loved Dance Smartly - but her turf races weren't that impressive.

I think DS is one of the most underrated horses of this era despite making the HOF, understandably perhaps because alot of race goers just didn't have a chance to see her best races which came in Canada, but thankfully her races are now readily available on youtube for everyone to see if they are interested. Her Breeders stakes turf race was a superb effort in her 3 yr old season.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ypzZ9...eature=related

Unfortunately she suffered an injury prior to her 4 yr old and she wasn't the same horse after that, still she managed a good 3rd in the Bev D. I wish she had run a few more times in America in her 3 yr old season to see where she stood to the other great fillies. Perhaps this would have given her the recognition she truly deserved.

cakes44 · #16 10-21-2009, 11:00 AM

How far down the list would Electrocutionist be?

richard · #17 10-21-2009, 11:00 AM

Affirmed Success jumps out at me . A great one .

smuthg · #18 10-21-2009, 11:09 AM

I can't remember, were any of Invasor's wins in South America on the turf? What about Midnight Lute? Great on Dirt and a Breeders' Cup Sprint winner on both Dirt and "pro-ride"...

On the Barbaro front, how many exclusively US based horses would be placed ahead of him?

The Indomitable DrugS · #19 10-21-2009, 11:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Indian Charlie

So, by use of your illogic, the fields Barbaro beat in Fla (dirt) were better than the 'sucky' derby field he buried, since they managed to finish much closer to Barbaro?

I realize you will try to bait me with that argument until one of us dies, but dude, cmon.

Barbaro's 3 lifetime dirt wins:

* 1st by 3/4 of a length in the Holy Bull. 2nd place finisher Great Point's lifetime best Beyer is a 96 .. and he's currently running for 5K claiming tags in Puerto Rico. My Golden Song was 3rd.

* 1st by a half length in the Florida Derby. Sharp Humor was 2nd. He never won another race in 3 more tries.

* 1st by 6.5 lengths in the Kentucky Derby. Bluegrass Cat, who was beaten 21 lengths by Sinister Minister in his prior start, was 2nd. Steppenwolfer was 3rd. The same Steppenwolfer that just ran 6th in a Steeplechase race at Fair Hill the other day. A horse who has never ran a triple digit fig once before.

I'm sorry, but he beat absolutely nothing on dirt. And only once did he even ever run fast while beating nothing. I'm sure he was improving .. but he's so much more about what he might have done than what he actually did do.

Big Brown's Ky Derby win was clearly more impressive than Barbaro's. His prior form coming into the Derby was also more impressive. That's why BB was a strong favorite ... and Barbaro was only vying for favortisim with Sweetnorthernsaint and Brother Derek.

And if I'm not a big fan of Big Brown at all... how could I think much more of Barbaro?

As far as turf racing though ... Barbaro and Incurable Optimist were probably the two best 2yo turf horses I ever saw.

Indian Charlie · #20 10-21-2009, 11:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Indomitable DrugS

Barbaro's 3 lifetime dirt wins:

* 1st by 3/4 of a length in the Holy Bull. 2nd place finisher Great Point's lifetime best Beyer is a 96 .. and he's currently running for 5K claiming tags in Puerto Rico. My Golden Song was 3rd.

* 1st by a half length in the Florida Derby. Sharp Humor was 2nd. He never won another race in 3 more tries.

* 1st by 6.5 lengths in the Kentucky Derby. Bluegrass Cat, who was beaten 21 lengths by Sinister Minister in his prior start, was 2nd. Steppenwolfer was 3rd. The same Steppenwolfer that just ran 6th in a Steeplechase race at Fair Hill the other day. A horse who has never ran a triple digit fig once before.

I'm sorry, but he beat absolutely nothing on dirt. And only once did he even ever run fast while beating nothing. I'm sure he was improving .. but he's so much more about what he might have done than what he actually did do.

Big Brown's Ky Derby win was clearly more impressive than Barbaro's. His prior form coming into the Derby was also more impressive. That's why BB was a strong favorite ... and Barbaro was only vying for favortisim with Sweetnorthernsaint and Brother Derek.

And if I'm not a big fan of Big Brown at all... how could I think much more of Barbaro?

As far as turf racing though ... Barbaro and Incurable Optimist were probably the two best 2yo turf horses I ever saw.

You can throw around cute little pieces of trivia that doesn't matter like that, but fact is, the derby really was his first race, including turf, in which he put everything together and didn't run green.

As for favoritism, obviously that was due to what was to most people, unimpressive dirt starts. What I saw in those two races was quite different than what you saw, which after all this time is still puzzling.