Are poles adjusted in turf races when the rail is shifted?

[Dunbar]

A friend asked me this question, and I don't know the answer, even though I should:

"Are the poles movable? Depending on where the rails are set (zero, fifteen or thirty feet at SA, may be different at other tracks), the 1/4, 1/2, etc. poles should be moved forward as the rails move out. The quarter pole should have a very slight adjustment as it is usually near the end of the turn, but the half pole, when the rail is set at 30 feet, should be positioned 94 feet ahead of where it is when the rails are at zero. Is this the way it's done?

I'm sure the start of the race is moved forward, but I was wondering about the poles, too. Anyone know? "

--Dunbar

[2Hot4TV]

Nope. I am not sure that they move the starting gate position.

[Storm Cadet]

We had this very discussion 2 years ago on our yearly Saratoga trip. We asked the track super and he said rails out or in, the gate is kept within a 10-15 distance each time.

We then tried to calibrate how much extra distance there is added to the race with rails out at different distances from the hedge. It's not that much because its only added distance on the turns they said.

[pba1817]

The theory of moving the rails out is making the runners run a longer distance is true. This is one reason as to why turf Beyer speed figures are very inaccurate, especially at tracks that do not run a large number of turf races.

In California, we have very few turf races each day, usually 1 or 2, sometimes 3 on weekend cards. One is usually a turf sprint, and the other is a route. The Beyer system is not very effective unless you have a large sample of races to compare. The sample is never high enough in my opinion when the rails are consistently being moved, and you are running one route race and one spring race in a day.

[BillW]

Originally Posted by Storm Cadet

We had this very discussion 2 years ago on our yearly Saratoga trip. We asked the track super and he said rails out or in, the gate is kept within a 10-15 distance each time.

We then tried to calibrate how much extra distance there is added to the race with rails out at different distances from the hedge. It's not that much because its only added distance on the turns they said.

Basically you are adding:

D * 6.283 to the distance

where D = the distance the rail is out ( 12 or 18 feet in the case of the Mellon course)

so with the rail out 12 feet we add 75 feet to the race or 113 feet for the rail at 18 feet.

[Storm Cadet]

Originally Posted by pba1817

The theory of moving the rails out is making the runners run a longer distance is true.

The reason they move the rails in and out is to SAVE THE TURF from getting beaten up. Just like a golf course moves the tees up and back on the tee box. It has nothing to do with MAKING horses run father or shorter.

Just as in golf, the golfer has to figure out the added distance if tees are back, so does the horseplayer figure out the added distance when rails are out.

[Storm Cadet]

Originally Posted by BillW

Basically you are adding:

D * 6.283 to the distance

where D = the distance the rail is out ( 12 or 18 feet in the case of the Mellon course)

so with the rail out 12 feet we add 75 feet to the race or 113 feet for the rail at 18 feet.

Bill we spoke about this 2 years ago with CJ and the track super at Sar, remember? Does your equation figure in for the whole trip, one turn turf, two turns? Is your equation for a circle...which a race track is NOT. The straight aways can't figure in to the added distance, ONLY the turns.

I'd love to drive a car or walk the course one day in the one path with the rails out at 12 feet and check the actual distance with a distance calibrator like road engeneers use. Then do the one path with rails out at 18 feet and so on.

Also, doesn't the distance out differ from inner and outer turf courses on your equation? The added distance HAS to be greater on the outer Belmont course than the inner with it's huge area and sweeping turns?

[todko]

Originally Posted by pba1817

The theory of moving the rails out is making the runners run a longer distance is true. This is one reason as to why turf Beyer speed figures are very inaccurate, especially at tracks that do not run a large number of turf races.

In California, we have very few turf races each day, usually 1 or 2, sometimes 3 on weekend cards. One is usually a turf sprint, and the other is a route. The Beyer system is not very effective unless you have a large sample of races to compare. The sample is never high enough in my opinion when the rails are consistently being moved, and you are running one route race and one spring race in a day.

Ideally the gate is moved to compensate for the rails being out. That is, ideally.

I agree that PPs should say where the rail was.

Rails out increases the radius of the turn and narrows the course. Any time the radius of a turn is increased it helps speed. The more the radius is increased the more the turn approaches a straight (simple geometry).

[todko]

Originally Posted by BillW

Basically you are adding:

D * 6.283 to the distance

where D = the distance the rail is out ( 12 or 18 feet in the case of the Mellon course)

so with the rail out 12 feet we add 75 feet to the race or 113 feet for the rail at 18 feet.

Well done. If they move the gate to compensate and the moves are inconsistent then it's tough to tell the actual distance of the race.

[Travis Stone]

The gate is not moved to compensate for the rails, it's moved to give the horses run-up time to the timing beam.

Those Spa turns are so tight as is, rails plus a wide trip certainly cannot help. To me, the additional distance isn't as bad as the inner horses getting a momentum burst by slingshoting off the turn while wide horses lose that ground.

If you think of a race visually, how often does a horse look awesome 4 wide and then once he loses those few feet he quits?

[ArlJim78]

Originally Posted by Storm Cadet

Bill we spoke about this 2 years ago with CJ and the track super at Sar, remember? Does your equation figure in for the whole trip, one turn turf, two turns? Is your equation for a circle...which a race track is NOT. The straight aways can't figure in to the added distance, ONLY the turns.

I'd love to drive a car or walk the course one day in the one path with the rails out at 12 feet and check the actual distance with a distance calibrator like road engeneers use. Then do the one path with rails out at 18 feet and so on.

Also, doesn't the distance out differ from inner and outer turf courses on your equation? The added distance HAS to be greater on the outer Belmont course than the inner with it's huge area and sweeping turns?

his equation accounts for a two turn race, the equation is for a circle but that is the only part of the track that needs to be considered when determining the extra distance due to the rails being out. the straights shouldn't matter.

you could say that the amount the rails being out adds to the distance is
3.141 * D * #t, where #T equals number of turns (1,2,3)

would you agree billw?

[Storm Cadet]

Originally Posted by ArlJim78

his equation accounts for a two turn race, the equation is for a circle but that is the only part of the track that needs to be considered when determining the extra distance due to the rails being out. the straights shouldn't matter.

you could say that the amount the rails being out adds to the distance is
3.141 * D * #t, where #T equals number of turns (1,2,3)

would you agree billw?

That makes more sense...3.141 time the number of turns times distance...but I wonder if that equation is really accurate?

I think the guys that have the best grasp of this and how it effects a race is the Thoro-graph guys. They are well tuned into the track super and the more scientific parts of handicapping. Good guys also! Would be a great breakfast discussion at Steve's AM T Graph seminars at Saratoga and invite the track super for his input. Maybe he had the added distance figured out already. And then add or subtract the gate runup distance...now we're getting into paralysis by analysis...just play Steve's turf picks. He knows SAR better than any of us!

[Storm Cadet]

BTW...whats your take on the topic of added ground with rails out?

Thanks in advance!

[blackthroatedwind]

Originally Posted by Storm Cadet

BTW...whats your take on the topic of added ground with rails out?

Thanks in advance!

It has occured to me, and I think it's a very interesting topic, but to be honest it doesn't really apply to my handicapping ( which may be a weakness ). Since I am far more interested in trips in general, and evaluate relative merits of horses ( in turf racing ) by the company they keep, I honestly don't concern myself with the minutia of minor distance changes in grass racing which seems only important in the exact science of figure making.

I would be interested in someone making a good case for why I am wrong about this, or what I am missing, and I mean this sincerely, but for now it seems almost trivial in regards to the bigger picture. I am not trying to minimalize this discussion, which I think is a really good one, I am just not sure it means a lot in the grander scheme of things since most horses are affected similarly by this situation.

[BillW]

Originally Posted by ArlJim78

his equation accounts for a two turn race, the equation is for a circle but that is the only part of the track that needs to be considered when determining the extra distance due to the rails being out. the straights shouldn't matter.

you could say that the amount the rails being out adds to the distance is
3.141 * D * #t, where #T equals number of turns (1,2,3)

would you agree billw?

Yep - at that time of the morning, turf races only have 2 turns

[BillW]

Originally Posted by Storm Cadet

Bill we spoke about this 2 years ago with CJ and the track super at Sar, remember? Does your equation figure in for the whole trip, one turn turf, two turns? Is your equation for a circle...which a race track is NOT. The straight aways can't figure in to the added distance, ONLY the turns.

Picture a circle split into 2 semi-circles. Now, separate the 2 semi-circles by a distance of 2 furlongs and connect them by straight lines, which is the approximate configuration of a race track. The equation holds in either case and the straight segment does not add anything (a 2 furlong straight segment is 2 furlongs no matter where it is relative to the hedge). As ArlJim78 mentions, the equation is 3.14159 (Pi) times the "rail out" distance for each turn.

Also, doesn't the distance out differ from inner and outer turf courses on your equation? The added distance HAS to be greater on the outer Belmont course than the inner with it's huge area and sweeping turns?

Nope - the change in circumference is linear. Also note that the same equations apply for a horse running off the rail.

[SentToStud]

MY understanding is this...

If you assume
1. Mile turf course
2. both straights are 1/4 mile and both turns are 1/4 mile

That's 2640 ft of turns in a 1 mile race. Radius of one turn = 2640 / 3.14 /2 = 420 ft

Move the rail out 20 feet, circ = 440(new radius) * 3.14 *2 = 2765 ft. So on a "20 ft out rail" they run 125 ft more on the turns than on a "Hedge rail" track. 125 ft is how far the starting gate is placed for the start of a '20 ft out' rail start past the start of a 'hedge rail' mile.

My understainding is:
1. Starting gate is moved.
2. Poles don't move.
3. Timers are not connected to poles, they're clipped to the rail.
4. They do move the timers.

1/8 mile is 660 ft. 125 feet is about 1/5 or so of 1/8 mile or about 2.5 seconds. That's roughly how much longer in a mile race timewise they run on the turns in a 20 ft out rail vs a hedge rail.

I got a C- in Chemistry so I could be very very wrong.

[BillW]

Originally Posted by blackthroatedwind

I would be interested in someone making a good case for why I am wrong about this, or what I am missing, and I mean this sincerely, but for now it seems almost trivial in regards to the bigger picture. I am not trying to minimalize this discussion, which I think is a really good one, I am just not sure it means a lot in the grander scheme of things since most horses are affected similarly by this situation.

If the turf course has tight enough turns that centrifugal force saps significantly more energy to run on the rail than further out, this may appear as a fixed bias for that track configuration that would change as the rail was moved out. Dunno if this has any practical impact but would be an interesting study.

[Bobby Fischer]

very interesting stuff!

How much does changing the turn radius affect these horses, and how much advantage does it gives to inside horses.
thanks

[Storm Cadet]

Originally Posted by BillW

Picture a circle split into 2 semi-circles. Now, separate the 2 semi-circles by a distance of 2 furlongs and connect them by straight lines, which is the approximate configuration of a race track. The equation holds in either case and the straight segment does not add anything (a 2 furlong straight segment is 2 furlongs no matter where it is relative to the hedge). As ArlJim78 mentions, the equation is 3.14159 (Pi) times the "rail out" distance for each turn.


Nope - the change in circumference is linear. Also note that the same equations apply for a horse running off the rail.

Are you the HUMAN TRACKUS?