Who thinks...
 

that the U.S. government has too much power over its citizens as of right now? Who is willing to give up all of their freedoms for national security? Why are we in Iraq?

Did you just get back from an SDS rally? Two mutually exclusive questions!

No, I didn't just get back from an SDS rally. I don't even know what an SDS rally is. I just wanted to see everyone's opinions; I'm curious. I have one more question though that I will edit because no one has given me an answer to it that satisfies my curiousity yet. I'm very concerned about what is going on now...that's all.

i don't
i'm not
we have to finish what we started

Sorry Kiddo: didn't mean to bark at you. SDS(Student for a Democratic Society) was '60's leftist group supported by the communist party. What rights of Americans are being abbrogated now,really? Nobody wants their rights denied in America. What, other than the Iraq question, has you bothered?

I don't classify myself as being in any group. I make decisions based on the individual circumstances.

http://web.amnesty.org/pages/guantanamobay-index-eng
http://jurist.law.pitt.edu/paperchas...s-to-close.php

There are two Americans there. There families did not know where they were for three years. They had no right to a trial or a lawyer. I see something wrong with this...(i.e. U.S. Constitution). If you read the articles, a lot of "detainees" are released and are not charged. That means that the government could come into our homes, and take any one of us away when they please.

That is for starters. There are lots more reasons.

i'm sorry, but i don't see why i should be worried about being taken out of my home for no reason, since A: i'm not a terrorist or suspected terrorist, B: i'm not in afghanistan or iraq fighting againt the u.s. and C: i'm a law abiding u.s. citizen. i seriously doubt that those who are in gitmo or elsewhere can say any of those things.

i do believe that we should be following the geneva convention regarding foreign combatants. i don't believe those combatants have any rights under the u.s. constitution.

KRIM: I read the articles....and to tell the truth, I was troubled by the secret prison revalation! But, in reality, laws are meant for the lawbreaker, and in War, especially a clandestine war...the security of our once safe country comes first! These are scary times, but I'm not worried too much about the Govt. BTW...Danzig...thanks for your imput.

But what about the people who don't break the laws? What about the innocent people? What about the Americans at the detainee camp who have been stripped of their Constitutional rights who may or may not be innocent? I'm sure a lot of these people thought that it couldn't happen to them either. No one should ever think that it couldn't happen to them. I learned that a long time ago. It has been steadily getting worse, and it's only going to get worse from here. The fact that no one can give me a halfway decent answer as to why we are in Iraq trying to establish democracy when it has been proven time and time again throughout history that we cannot establish a democracy in Iraq until other things happen first proves my point. Well let me tell you, the things that have to happen first are not going to happen any time soon. History is bound to repeat itself once again.

Why are we in Iraq? Why did we go over there in the first place? If it was for Hussein, then why didn't Clinton go over there? Why has the government told us that the Iraqi people hate Americans? Do they really hate us? So many questions unanswered...

In the New York Times on August 17, 2006, Bob Herbert wrote an article called The Tyranny of Fear. It might put a different perspective on the situation.

KRIM: why didn't you just say "I want to argue about the war" instead of innocently posing the other 2 questions? Danzig answered your questions! BTW..you're like 19?..what could you possibly learned a long time ago??? I think I agree with Kevin!!

Timm, you're "troubled" by the secret prison revelation? You're aware that in those prisons prisoners held by the US have been tortured, some to death? By a nation claiming that we're better than the terrorists we fight? Does that "trouble" you? How on earth can we claim the moral high ground when we torture? And for what possible use is torture? If an American soldier was captured, and put through the "methods" these prisons have used, would you believe anything he admitted to the enemy?

9/11 terrified us. Virtually alone among the world, we were the only country to have been spared terrorist attacks, other than the previous attempt in '93 and our own home-grown terrorists, who struck in Oklahoma City and in Atlanta and at abortion clinics. And our reaction has been to beat our chests and march into a nation that didn't have anything to do with the 9/11 attacks (that would be Iraq), while at home we hand over our freedoms to an Administration that is doing everything it can to keep us in a constant state of terror.

I want to quote one of the letters written about an article on Salon about the aftermath of 9/11-- oh, here's the link to the article, too:

http://salon.com/opinion/feature/2006/09/09/loss/

<<And when it did happen, did our supposed representatives make the most of that momentary (international) solidarity and do the right thing? Of course not. They pulled off a underhanded power grab, and five years later we're clinging to the last illusions of freedom we've got - the freedom to spend money on superfluous crap while our government squeezes all the joy out of our lives, setting us at each other's throats in panic. And they can do that because the American PEOPLE have been happy to go along with it, all in the name of the fantasy of "security" which is no security at all. We're not only not "safer", we're in more danger than ever, because a populace made timid and complicit is far more vulnerable than one strong and secure in its own self, regardless of whether there is an outside threat or not.

Franklin Delano Roosevelt was right - The only thing we have to fear is fear itself. Benjamin Franklin was also right - Those who would surrender essential liberties in exchange for a little temporary safety deserve neither Liberty nor Safety. The worst threat comes from within us, and I do hope that someday we'll figure that out. But frankly, I doubt it. Methinks the time of America's greatness is past, and we're on the downhill side.>>

Telling ourselves that our gov't should be allowed to spy on us and throw citizens in jail without benefit of counsel or knowing the charges against them because they'll only spy on bad people is naive at best, sheeplike at worst. It easily becomes a "do whatever you want; just please leave me alone" and how on earth do we stay a united nation when we are willing to let the next guy be dragged off into the night? How do we hold our heads up when we let our government, the government WE put in place, take away our rights? Because 19 hijackers got lucky and killed 3,000 people? For that, we give up our freedom? Who wins then? Us, or them?

And here's something else to put in your crystal balls-- from Andrew Sullivan's website:

<<Next week, I'm informed via troubled White House sources, will see the full unveiling of Karl Rove's fall election strategy. He's intending to line up 9/11 families to accuse McCain, Warner and Graham of delaying justice for the perpetrators of that atrocity, because they want to uphold the ancient judicial traditions of the U.S. military and abide by the Constitution. He will use the families as an argument for legalizing torture, setting up kangaroo courts for military prisoners, and giving war crime impunity for his own aides and cronies. This is his "Hail Mary" move for November; it's brutally exploitative of 9/11; it's pure partisanship; and it's designed to enable an untrammeled executive. Decent Republicans, Independents and Democrats must do all they can to expose and resist this latest descent into political thuggery. If you need proof that this administration's first priority is not a humane and effective counter-terror strategy, but a brutal, exploitative path to retaining power at any price, you just got it.>>

Is that the country you want to live in?
Guys, if this does come out to be true, please be aware of it for what it is-- an attempt to hold onto power by terrifying the American people. Is that a war on terror or a war of terror? You tell me.

Which is not to criticize either you, Timm, or Danzig, please know that. I like you both and very much respect you. But this gov't has pulled a hell of a bait-and-switch on the American people for the past 5 years and I just can't bear seeing what's happening to my beloved country. So my long rant has nothing to do with either of you (lord knows in racing stuff, you both run circles around me. Pun intended)

GR: crystal balls? Thanks for the compliment! 1 outta 2 on the quotes isn't bad...but our essential rights haven't been denied! How 'bout deeply troubled? I have no answer for some of your empassioned queries....except I too agree we are on a downhill slide. In America today, it takes 2 earners to barely break even, meaning most of us are just trying to make a living, hoping the kids are safe, praying that no major crisis strikes before the kids' college fund is complete. We trust our leaders to do the right thing and we find out way too often they've fallen short of our trust and vision. I don't think wiretapping is correct unless the court(checks and balances) allows it, but if it saves thousands of lives by doing it then I'm good. The problem with our govt is that it has been complicit in so much crap way before you and I were born that we've weakened or destroyed most of our credibility to the US citizens, and in some cases, our allies. I can only hope that ALL of the good-ol-boy cliques can be done away with....on both sides of the aisle.

KYRose,
I was thinking of staying out of this discourse, as it's futile to talk truth to those that believe all the propaganda that they've eaten.
Unfortunately, the US government has indeed taken too much power from its citizens. The tactic is "fear". We all, patriotic Americans, really want to do our best to maintain a safe environment for our families and ourselves.
So, we take off our shoes at the security check prior to the boarding gate, discard our shampoo and deoderant.
Have we given up freedoms? The Patriot Act includes provisions for reporting which books you've checked out from your library. Your overseas phone calls are probably monitored, as are your private financial dealings.
Has that helped national security? Well, like Danzig, I have nothing to hide.
However, independent contractors operating in Iraq seem to have kept their dealings well hidden from the American taxpayers. If anyone knows of the current cost over runs concerning Halliburton (the company that vp Cheney was CEO of prior to his current tenure), please provide the link.
Why are we in Iraq? It was our present administration's war of choice.
It is overwhelmingly opposed by the majority of Americans as of now.
There is no exit strategy as the death toll mounts and civil war ensues.
We are losing in Iraq, as we are in Afghanistan. Now there is talk of a pre-emptive air strike against Iran to take out their nuclear program.
Seems that the "uniter" has lead this once great country down the same path that others did during the Vietnam era. Unfortunately, we are a divided nation...and we are losing two wars despite the sacrifice of so many.

http://www.commondreams.org/headlines06/0909-01.htm

What does Kevin have to do with this? What did Kevin say that you agree with? I know not of what you speak. Oh, and I am not 19. And I did not want to just talk about the war. That is why I was talking about prisoner detainee camps.

I just wish, for once, that I could have a conversation with someone from this message board without them personally attacking me? Just once?

Besides Genuine Risk just got to the point for me. Thank you Genuine Risk. That was very well stated and my opinion is the same as yours.

Thank you DTS for the great insight. I'm glad that I am not the only one who realizes this. I agree with you wholeheartedly. Things have to change. I am trying to inform the American people of what is REALLY going on. I provide the tools and the argument. All they have to do is think. Others such as yourself help tremendously, because you know the truth, and you post what you think. That is what this thread was all about. It may be futile for some, but those who are open-minded will come around. A lot already have. The only question is: How do you stand up to a smart bully who is stronger and more powerful than you? I know the answer, but it is going to take courage by the American citizens who care or a lot more ethical president with a better administration.

KRose,
Now that's a very tough question, "How do you stand up to a bully who is stronger and more powerful than you?"
Seems to me that prior to the American Revolution, a similar question was asked by Thomas Paine. Though I don't advocate revolution against our present government, many Americans now see the fallacy of the "stay the course" mentality. I sure hope "common sense" becomes reality.
Present policy is insanity.
If it demands courage to say so, count me with the 63% of Americans that agree (according to the latest poll I saw).
Deception and lies will never win against the truth. Never have in the past, and never will in the future.
It's not futile to say so.

You say you want to inform people of what is REALLY going in. What is Really going on? I guess you need to inform me. I must be one of the ignorant ones.

I think someone needs to inform you about what is going in. You obviously don't get it. Maybe we'll have to have another 9/11 for you to get it.

Our government is doing the best job they can in a very difficult time. There is no way that our governmnet could protect us with the laws that were in place before 9/11. There is simply no way. Luckily for us, pretty much everyone in Congress on both sides of the aisle understand this. That is why they passed the Patriot Act. I'm not saying that the Patriot Act is perfect. It may not be perfect but we definitely needed some type of thing passed like the Patriot Act. Every person in Congress in both parties knows this.

People in both parties are concerned about civil liberties. You always have to weigh the pros and cons of any type of legislation. Nobody likes to have their privacy invaded, but sometimes there is no other choice. Let's look at something as simple as going to the airport. I don't like going through a metal detector. I don't like being searched and having my bags checked. Nobody likes it but everyone recognizes that it is absolutely necessary. It has to be done. It would be too dangerous for them not to do it. It's that simple.

I think Iraq is a totally separate debate. A good case can be made that we did not need to go into Iraq.

By the way, I'm not mad at you. I have debates with friends all the time and there are never any hard feelings. Anyway, I strongly disagree with your contention that our government is doing any of these things with anything other than the best intentions in mind. In addition, I think that most of the things they've done are absolutely necessary.

I'd like you to name a single case of someone who was arrested that the government did not have good reason to detain.

:D YEAH...what Rupert said!!

Here ya go Rupert...
http://www.commondreams.org/views06/0910-24.htm

I don't know why I was dumb enough to actually read anything from commondreams. That website is nothing more than propaganda. I think you are intelligent enough to know that.

What did that article prove? Is that supposed to be some indictment against the current administration? It doesn't matter who the President is and it doesn't matter what party he is in. It will have no effect on the treatment you will receive if you try to go to the capitol and disrupt a congressional session. Unless you are invited to speak, you cannot speak. You can't go into a cogressional session and start yelling your views. You will be arrested. I assume you know that so I don't understand why you would post that article.

I don't know if you noticed that the author served as a colonel for 29 years in the military.
Seems to me she has some things she believes are worth taking a stand for.
To me, that proves a lot.

She has the right to her opinion. So do the thousand of others who served in the military that would disagree with her.

Although everyone is entitled to their opinion, nobody has the right to disrupt the congress while they are in session.

I dont think our government has too much power over us as a people, granted it hasnt done a great job. We will never have to give our freedoms for national security, it may seem that way for some people. We are in Iraq to give them a free democratic society without fear.

so you're worried about the innocent ones, taken out of their homes? i really don't think anyone in gitmo was dragged out of their home. i do think they were dragged out of iraq or afganistan.

as for the woman arrested at the capitol, everyone has a right to their opinion, and to free speech--but they don't have the right to break the law to make themselves heard. we have a right to assembly, not to trespassing.

Too much power? No

But! (As I'm about 2 open so many cans of worms it's gonna suck)... The Iraq situation is like the war on drugs or Vietnam... It's a war we can't win. You can't control a bunch of people that don't wanna be controlled. There are some people that are willing to go along with our brand of democracy, but there are too many terrorists, extremists, etc that will make it impossible for things to ever stabilize there.

It's time to cut our losses and leave. It sucks that it's gotta come to that. I was in support of "Dubya" at the beginning. But it's just not gonna work. Let them be a country in anarachy. Let them be another Afghanastan. Some Oil Warlord will come out of the woodwork eventually and then the U.S. can deal with whoever that will be.

Again, some have been dragged out of their homes here in the U.S. Just read some of the articles that I posted. It's not an opinion. It's a fact.

OK, pjmyjr, I hear yah and I agree with you completely. The only question is: Is Hussein or anarchy better? Hussein was a tyrant, but that kind of dictator was the only thing that kept those people under control over there. I didn't like him and thought he was extremely cruel, but it worked. He kept the country together. Anarchy has torn that country apart. It can't and won't be stabilized again until another powerful dictator, who will have to be firm and cruel, like Hussein, takes over. Who knows? This new dictator might be worse than Hussein. Then what? Are we going to go to war all over again?

An important note is that their have been many mass murders and genocide attacks in other countries over the years. Why hasn't the U.S. tried to liberate those people?

i've takien in some stray dogs over the years...couldn't save every one i came across, but i saved a few. by using your logic of not being able to save them all, does that mean i shouldn't have saved any? the u.s. shouldn't go anywhere, because it can't be everywhere?

and i don't buy it that the u.s. went into homes and pulled out innocent people with no justification, with no reason, with no suspicion. i think that our people are kept too busy chasing legitimate bad guys to have time to go after innocent people.
we all know that not all people arrested are guilty, but not all those in prison are innocent, even tho they all say they are.

better ten guilty go free, than one innocent person be jailed--i agree with that absolutely!!

he kept the country together?? i can't believe that mass genocide, torture and the like are excusable for any reason...is anarchy better? no. they're both evil, and hopefully both will eventually be no more.

the only reason i think that we should have left him in there is to keep iran at bay. the power vacuum so many feared, the real reason we didn't go into iraq in the first gulf war, is now a reality....and iran is reaping what we sowed.

I never said that they went into those homes with no reason Danzig. I'm sure they had legitimate reasons. That isn't the part that I don't agree with. What I don't agree with is that these people are either stripped of their Constitutional rights (the Americans) or are not given any Constitutional rights (all the other detainees).

Hussein kept the people over there under control. I mean look at them now. I think that it is worse over there now then it was when he was ruling. That is what I meant when I said that he kept the country together. People weren't running around blowing up everyone. Haven't like 20,000 died since this war started? There isn't any excuse for mass genocide, but (correct me if I'm wrong) didn't he do that a long time ago? We also torture people here in the U.S. at Gitmo. I didn't even ever consider Iran. Thanks for the input.

Rupert: You say you want to inform people of what is REALLY going in. What is Really going on? I guess you need to inform me. I must be one of the ignorant ones.

I think someone needs to inform you about what is going in. You obviously don't get it. Maybe we'll have to have another 9/11 for you to get it.

Although 9/11 was extremely horrible, it could have been a lot worse. If those people REALLY hated us, they would have flown the planes into our nuclear power plants. They hate our power and our financial wealth, which in their religion, are symbols of evil. That is why they attacked our monuments instead of the nuclear power plants.

Our government is doing the best job they can in a very difficult time. There is no way that our governmnet could protect us with the laws that were in place before 9/11.

We still aren't safe Rupert. We will never be safe. Congress hasn't even really addressed our biggest threat. Our biggest threat by outside countries is terrorists coming through the Mexican/U.S. border. Do you know just how easy it would be for them to do that? However, America's biggest threat is herself. I mean, look at how divided the country is right now.

I love this country, and think that it is the best country in the world. I will fight for the American people, for you and everyone, but not for the ones in office who I believe have a hidden agenda in Iraq which involves money and power. I will stand in the face of the bully alone with only words and the best of intenetions if I have to. I will die for this cause because I believe in what is right. What is going on at Guantanamo Bay is not right. The power that those in office and law enforcement possess in this country is not right. The people have too little say. We are allowing them to take away our freedoms. Now, it doesn't seem like they have taken so many away, but I fear that it is only going to get worse in the name of "safety". This country is going downhill and fast.

Genuine Risk and DTS know of what I talk about. The cases that they and myself pointed out are hardly the only ones. Lots more have occurred like them. You just have to look for them. For instance:

In the New York Times on August 17, 2006, Bob Herbert wrote an article called The Tyranny of Fear. It might put a different perspective on the situation.

I'd like you to name a single case of someone who was arrested that the government did not have good reason to detain.

It's not the fact that they don't have a good reason to detain these people Rupert. It's the fact that they don't have any Constitutional rights, are threatened, and tortured.

The fact that the people who have served in the U.S. military are starting to speak out against the U.S. government should say something.

Just as you, I mean everything that I said in the utmost respect.

And here you go again, Rupert. At least 5 men, who have been held in prison for 4 years now...

http://www.abcnews.go.com/WNT/story?id=1629283

Excellent issues you bring up, TG, and I agree that the increasing economic disparity is a HUGE issue in this nation-- much bigger, I think, in the long run than anything else, other than maybe global warming, and like global warming, it gets no attention in the press. I feel like the current Administration keeps us in a constant state of fear so that we don't notice the chipping away at the progressive tax system, at the safety nets, at everything that gives poor and middle class Americans a chance. They wave images of the Islamic terrorists in front of our eyes so we don't notice the new aristocracy they're jamming down our throats. But I think it's a more recent development-- the push for economic inequality began in the 1970's-- prior to that, I think the memories of the Great Depression were still too recent-- look at the tax brackets in the 1940's, '50's and '60's compared with today.

Which again, comes back to my plea of, don't fall for the, "Look at the monkey! Look at the monkey!" distractions they have been pulling on us for six years. Don't fall for it!

Life is not by its nature, perfectly safe. New Yorkers probably know that better than anyone-- violence, even in our new, improved city, is still a daily occurence. But we go out every day and go about our lives, and still stroll about with our "New York F*cking City" attitude that we know makes the rest of the country furious. :) Because danger is not reason to allow your phone calls to be monitored without a court OK, or to have the names the books you read handed over by librarians, or your medical records available to the gov't (which they now are). Our gov't is supposed to work FOR us. And if they demand to listen to my phone calls with impunity, all the while letting most packages coming into the US ports go uninspected, then by God, they aren't working for me; they're working for themselves and it's time to throw the bastards out. I won't spend my days living in constant terror of another attack, and as a New Yorker, I'm in more danger from a foreign terrorist than most people out in the heartland (though heartlanders have their home-grown ones to worry about). But my freedom is worth more to me than my fear. And I'm tired of an Administration using fear so it can take away my economic security and my personal liberties. I'm tired of an Administration that calls me a terrorist sympathizer every time I disagree with it (and worse yet, inspires my fellow Americans to call me one, too).

Whew. Props again, to everyone, for being so polite in discussion. We're SO much better than cable news... ;)

And I do agree, TG, that the gov't has been complicit in plenty of stuff going way back, too-- I don't think you're wrong about that-- I just think the increasing economic inequality is a bit more recent. I saw a documentary that I think is going to be re-released in a few months, called "America--Freedom to Fascism" that, while not perfect, was a fount of interesting information about the Federal Reserve Board and all kinds of stuff. I can honestly say, I think there's stuff in it for everyone, Dems, Pubs and Indies alike. Look for it.

Another good thread....good points raised by most posters.
If we lived in Israel, we'd be giving up more of our rights than we are forced to do here just to survive...brings me back to Jack McCoy in front of the Supreme Court arguing for the ability to prosecute a foreign national for murdering folks..."in the end, we have only those rights that we can defend...only those rights!" There is a price to pay for freedom and if we as individuals become unwilling to pay that price, our children will never know what it was like to live in a free society! All that said...the current administration has trampled our rights to the point where any intelligent person must question their actions! I'm not prepared to say that Bush isn't doing these things out of a genuine belief that they are necessary to protect us, but government, by it's very nature, tends to expand it's power if left unchecked...the duty of every citizen is to question and demand honest answers...then, if we feel a wrong path has been chosen, we have the power to correct that at the ballot box! The problem in this nation can't be laid at the doorstep of one man, or one party...the problem is that the rich are too rich, the powerful too powerful, the influential too self-serving! One man, one vote has become a joke as the choices are clones of one another...Bush or Kerry? Would it have made the slightest difference? Bush or Gore? Same thing!
We need to open up the political system, eliminate lobbyists, eliminate "donations" from the rich, and return the focal point of political life to serving the people...ALL THE PEOPLE!! We need national health care, a real dedication to public education, redevelopment and jobs for poverty-stricken areas, and yes, Francis...a redistribution of wealth! This gets me branded as a socialist or worse but what does Bill Gates need with a hundred billion dollars? Work hard, get ahead, live well...I have no problem with that, but not at the expense of the rest of society! Redo the tax system, cap wealth and cut out the "pork" in legislation and everyone in this country can live a decent life! The role of government is to serve the people, not establish a caste system and insure that there are two Americas...there must be only one America! In the words of Duncan McCloud..."there can be only one!"

so since hussein committed genocie 'a long time ago' that's ok?? and it wasn't that long ago, not that that matters. i'd image the family members of those killed feel like it was just yesterday, when it was after gulf one. really not so long ago after all.

and as i said, those that are not u.s. citizens should fall under the geneva convention, but not the constitution. after all, our citizens convicted in foreign countries are not under the us constitution, so foreign nationals have no argument that they should be here. also, the geneva convention is supposedly for prisoners of war...that is where the bush admin tries to get slippery, they call this a war, but don't want to call the people they are fighting soldiers, they want to call them terrorists. can't have it both ways.

absolutely our citizens should have constitutional rights!

You're absolutely right, Danzig; the fact that it happened a long time ago doesn't make it okay-- my stepmom survived the Pol Pot genocide in Cambodia (her husband, the father of my stepbrothers, did not- he was Muslim, so he was executed. My stepmom was in a labor camp for four years until she fled the country) and while it was a quarter century ago, she still remembers.

That said-- Hussein was a madman, but a secular madman. Which infuriated the religious madmen in the middle East, and, since he was closer to them than we are, he took a fair amount of their focus, which is now longer devoted to him. The horrible part of the question is, did toppelling Hussein make us, here in the US, safer? And my feeling is no; if anything it destablized that region even further and the mess in Iraq is now fertile breeding ground for terrorists who see the US as occupiers. Maybe it will pan out in the future, but I think a different Administration will have to do the panning out-- this one underfunded and botched and didn't plan and frankly, I don't think they're capable of fixing what they started.

So was it worth it? I guess A) the final chapter is not written; time will tell and B) it depends on whether your concern is for people in the US only or people of the world, even at the US's expense. I don't know. I just don't know.

But I tell you what, I prefer my madmen secular. How do you argue with someone whose response is "But God said so."????

As I sit at my keyboard ... and poke out this message ... at 1:45pm on September 11, 2006 ...

... I can say ... with absolute certainty ...

... that in the entire history of the human race ... there has never been a more free or more prosperous society than the United States of America is right now ... and all of us who are alive ... here and now ... are the most blessed people who have ever lived.

Therefore ... fully knowing this ... I am more than content to ignore the hysterical rantings of the loony leftists out there ... who neither understand nor appreciate how utterly fortunate they are.