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#1
09-10-2006, 02:42 PM
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Who thinks...
that the U.S. government has too much power over its citizens as of right now? Who is willing to give up all of their freedoms for national security? Why are we in Iraq?
Last edited by kentuckyrosesinmay : 09-10-2006 at 02:58 PM. 
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#2
09-10-2006, 02:45 PM
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Did you just get back from an SDS rally? Two mutually exclusive questions!
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#3
09-10-2006, 02:57 PM
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#4
09-10-2006, 03:13 PM
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i'm not we have to finish what we started
__________________
Books serve to show a man that those original thoughts of his aren't very new at all. Abraham Lincoln
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#5
09-10-2006, 03:16 PM
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Sorry Kiddo: didn't mean to bark at you. SDS(Student for a Democratic Society) was '60's leftist group supported by the communist party. What rights of Americans are being abbrogated now,really? Nobody wants their rights denied in America. What, other than the Iraq question, has you bothered?
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#6
09-10-2006, 03:51 PM
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http://web.amnesty.org/pages/guantanamobay-index-eng http://jurist.law.pitt.edu/paperchas...s-to-close.php There are two Americans there. There families did not know where they were for three years. They had no right to a trial or a lawyer. I see something wrong with this...(i.e. U.S. Constitution). If you read the articles, a lot of "detainees" are released and are not charged. That means that the government could come into our homes, and take any one of us away when they please. That is for starters. There are lots more reasons.
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#7
09-10-2006, 04:05 PM
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i'm sorry, but i don't see why i should be worried about being taken out of my home for no reason, since A: i'm not a terrorist or suspected terrorist, B: i'm not in afghanistan or iraq fighting againt the u.s. and C: i'm a law abiding u.s. citizen. i seriously doubt that those who are in gitmo or elsewhere can say any of those things.
i do believe that we should be following the geneva convention regarding foreign combatants. i don't believe those combatants have any rights under the u.s. constitution.
__________________
Books serve to show a man that those original thoughts of his aren't very new at all. Abraham Lincoln
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#8
09-10-2006, 04:09 PM
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KRIM: I read the articles....and to tell the truth, I was troubled by the secret prison revalation! But, in reality, laws are meant for the lawbreaker, and in War, especially a clandestine war...the security of our once safe country comes first! These are scary times, but I'm not worried too much about the Govt. BTW...Danzig...thanks for your imput.
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#9
09-10-2006, 04:33 PM
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But what about the people who don't break the laws? What about the innocent people? What about the Americans at the detainee camp who have been stripped of their Constitutional rights who may or may not be innocent? I'm sure a lot of these people thought that it couldn't happen to them either. No one should ever think that it couldn't happen to them. I learned that a long time ago. It has been steadily getting worse, and it's only going to get worse from here. The fact that no one can give me a halfway decent answer as to why we are in Iraq trying to establish democracy when it has been proven time and time again throughout history that we cannot establish a democracy in Iraq until other things happen first proves my point. Well let me tell you, the things that have to happen first are not going to happen any time soon. History is bound to repeat itself once again.
Why are we in Iraq? Why did we go over there in the first place? If it was for Hussein, then why didn't Clinton go over there? Why has the government told us that the Iraqi people hate Americans? Do they really hate us? So many questions unanswered... In the New York Times on August 17, 2006, Bob Herbert wrote an article called The Tyranny of Fear. It might put a different perspective on the situation. Last edited by kentuckyrosesinmay : 09-10-2006 at 04:41 PM.
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#10
09-10-2006, 04:48 PM
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KRIM: why didn't you just say "I want to argue about the war" instead of innocently posing the other 2 questions? Danzig answered your questions! BTW..you're like 19?..what could you possibly learned a long time ago??? I think I agree with Kevin!!
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#11
09-10-2006, 05:01 PM
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9/11 terrified us. Virtually alone among the world, we were the only country to have been spared terrorist attacks, other than the previous attempt in '93 and our own home-grown terrorists, who struck in Oklahoma City and in Atlanta and at abortion clinics. And our reaction has been to beat our chests and march into a nation that didn't have anything to do with the 9/11 attacks (that would be Iraq), while at home we hand over our freedoms to an Administration that is doing everything it can to keep us in a constant state of terror. I want to quote one of the letters written about an article on Salon about the aftermath of 9/11-- oh, here's the link to the article, too: http://salon.com/opinion/feature/2006/09/09/loss/ <<And when it did happen, did our supposed representatives make the most of that momentary (international) solidarity and do the right thing? Of course not. They pulled off a underhanded power grab, and five years later we're clinging to the last illusions of freedom we've got - the freedom to spend money on superfluous crap while our government squeezes all the joy out of our lives, setting us at each other's throats in panic. And they can do that because the American PEOPLE have been happy to go along with it, all in the name of the fantasy of "security" which is no security at all. We're not only not "safer", we're in more danger than ever, because a populace made timid and complicit is far more vulnerable than one strong and secure in its own self, regardless of whether there is an outside threat or not. Franklin Delano Roosevelt was right - The only thing we have to fear is fear itself. Benjamin Franklin was also right - Those who would surrender essential liberties in exchange for a little temporary safety deserve neither Liberty nor Safety. The worst threat comes from within us, and I do hope that someday we'll figure that out. But frankly, I doubt it. Methinks the time of America's greatness is past, and we're on the downhill side.>> Telling ourselves that our gov't should be allowed to spy on us and throw citizens in jail without benefit of counsel or knowing the charges against them because they'll only spy on bad people is naive at best, sheeplike at worst. It easily becomes a "do whatever you want; just please leave me alone" and how on earth do we stay a united nation when we are willing to let the next guy be dragged off into the night? How do we hold our heads up when we let our government, the government WE put in place, take away our rights? Because 19 hijackers got lucky and killed 3,000 people? For that, we give up our freedom? Who wins then? Us, or them? And here's something else to put in your crystal balls-- from Andrew Sullivan's website: <<Next week, I'm informed via troubled White House sources, will see the full unveiling of Karl Rove's fall election strategy. He's intending to line up 9/11 families to accuse McCain, Warner and Graham of delaying justice for the perpetrators of that atrocity, because they want to uphold the ancient judicial traditions of the U.S. military and abide by the Constitution. He will use the families as an argument for legalizing torture, setting up kangaroo courts for military prisoners, and giving war crime impunity for his own aides and cronies. This is his "Hail Mary" move for November; it's brutally exploitative of 9/11; it's pure partisanship; and it's designed to enable an untrammeled executive. Decent Republicans, Independents and Democrats must do all they can to expose and resist this latest descent into political thuggery. If you need proof that this administration's first priority is not a humane and effective counter-terror strategy, but a brutal, exploitative path to retaining power at any price, you just got it.>> Is that the country you want to live in? Guys, if this does come out to be true, please be aware of it for what it is-- an attempt to hold onto power by terrifying the American people. Is that a war on terror or a war of terror? You tell me.
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#12
09-10-2006, 05:03 PM
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Which is not to criticize either you, Timm, or Danzig, please know that. I like you both and very much respect you. But this gov't has pulled a hell of a bait-and-switch on the American people for the past 5 years and I just can't bear seeing what's happening to my beloved country. So my long rant has nothing to do with either of you (lord knows in racing stuff, you both run circles around me. Pun intended)
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#13
09-10-2006, 05:39 PM
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GR: crystal balls? Thanks for the compliment! 1 outta 2 on the quotes isn't bad...but our essential rights haven't been denied! How 'bout deeply troubled? I have no answer for some of your empassioned queries....except I too agree we are on a downhill slide. In America today, it takes 2 earners to barely break even, meaning most of us are just trying to make a living, hoping the kids are safe, praying that no major crisis strikes before the kids' college fund is complete. We trust our leaders to do the right thing and we find out way too often they've fallen short of our trust and vision. I don't think wiretapping is correct unless the court(checks and balances) allows it, but if it saves thousands of lives by doing it then I'm good. The problem with our govt is that it has been complicit in so much crap way before you and I were born that we've weakened or destroyed most of our credibility to the US citizens, and in some cases, our allies. I can only hope that ALL of the good-ol-boy cliques can be done away with....on both sides of the aisle.
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#14
09-10-2006, 05:51 PM
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I was thinking of staying out of this discourse, as it's futile to talk truth to those that believe all the propaganda that they've eaten. Unfortunately, the US government has indeed taken too much power from its citizens. The tactic is "fear". We all, patriotic Americans, really want to do our best to maintain a safe environment for our families and ourselves. So, we take off our shoes at the security check prior to the boarding gate, discard our shampoo and deoderant. Have we given up freedoms? The Patriot Act includes provisions for reporting which books you've checked out from your library. Your overseas phone calls are probably monitored, as are your private financial dealings. Has that helped national security? Well, like Danzig, I have nothing to hide. However, independent contractors operating in Iraq seem to have kept their dealings well hidden from the American taxpayers. If anyone knows of the current cost over runs concerning Halliburton (the company that vp Cheney was CEO of prior to his current tenure), please provide the link. Why are we in Iraq? It was our present administration's war of choice. It is overwhelmingly opposed by the majority of Americans as of now. There is no exit strategy as the death toll mounts and civil war ensues. We are losing in Iraq, as we are in Afghanistan. Now there is talk of a pre-emptive air strike against Iran to take out their nuclear program. Seems that the "uniter" has lead this once great country down the same path that others did during the Vietnam era. Unfortunately, we are a divided nation...and we are losing two wars despite the sacrifice of so many. http://www.commondreams.org/headlines06/0909-01.htm
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#15
09-10-2006, 05:55 PM
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I just wish, for once, that I could have a conversation with someone from this message board without them personally attacking me? Just once? Besides Genuine Risk just got to the point for me. Thank you Genuine Risk. That was very well stated and my opinion is the same as yours. Last edited by kentuckyrosesinmay : 09-10-2006 at 06:24 PM.
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#16
09-10-2006, 05:56 PM
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Last edited by kentuckyrosesinmay : 09-10-2006 at 06:15 PM.
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#17
09-10-2006, 06:26 PM
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Now that's a very tough question, "How do you stand up to a bully who is stronger and more powerful than you?" Seems to me that prior to the American Revolution, a similar question was asked by Thomas Paine. Though I don't advocate revolution against our present government, many Americans now see the fallacy of the "stay the course" mentality. I sure hope "common sense" becomes reality. Present policy is insanity. If it demands courage to say so, count me with the 63% of Americans that agree (according to the latest poll I saw). Deception and lies will never win against the truth. Never have in the past, and never will in the future. It's not futile to say so.
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#18
09-10-2006, 07:05 PM
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I think someone needs to inform you about what is going in. You obviously don't get it. Maybe we'll have to have another 9/11 for you to get it. Our government is doing the best job they can in a very difficult time. There is no way that our governmnet could protect us with the laws that were in place before 9/11. There is simply no way. Luckily for us, pretty much everyone in Congress on both sides of the aisle understand this. That is why they passed the Patriot Act. I'm not saying that the Patriot Act is perfect. It may not be perfect but we definitely needed some type of thing passed like the Patriot Act. Every person in Congress in both parties knows this. People in both parties are concerned about civil liberties. You always have to weigh the pros and cons of any type of legislation. Nobody likes to have their privacy invaded, but sometimes there is no other choice. Let's look at something as simple as going to the airport. I don't like going through a metal detector. I don't like being searched and having my bags checked. Nobody likes it but everyone recognizes that it is absolutely necessary. It has to be done. It would be too dangerous for them not to do it. It's that simple. I think Iraq is a totally separate debate. A good case can be made that we did not need to go into Iraq. By the way, I'm not mad at you. I have debates with friends all the time and there are never any hard feelings. Anyway, I strongly disagree with your contention that our government is doing any of these things with anything other than the best intentions in mind. In addition, I think that most of the things they've done are absolutely necessary. I'd like you to name a single case of someone who was arrested that the government did not have good reason to detain.
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#19
09-10-2006, 07:09 PM
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 YEAH...what Rupert said!!
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#20
09-10-2006, 07:18 PM
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Quote:
http://www.commondreams.org/views06/0910-24.htm
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