A petition to save the people of Darfur

[Cannon Shell]

We should use all diplomatic efforts to stop the killing of civilians. But this is really a UN issue. This situation, however impossible to end, should be tended to by the UN and African Union. We need to stay out of direct involvement, principally because it is a no win situation that will need to be monitored perhaps forever. There are so many problems in the Sudan that can not be solved by anyone, like the fact the land there can't support enugh food to feed the people even under the best of times. This notion that China can solve the problem is illinformed. Any diplomatic attempt to put China in the middle of this mess is only to deflect attention from the issue itself and other western countries inablility or desire to get directly involved. Oil is the only resource that the Sudan has that is worth anything. But to think that the 3 warring sides will put down their weapons and sign a lasting accord if China pulls the plug is fools gold. These groups have signed so many treaties and cease fires over the years, pretty much none of them effective. The country has been at civil war for most of its years in existence and probably will for years to come. There is no real solution to the problem and though it is tragic, placing blame on the US or China is wrong.

[somerfrost]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

We should use all diplomatic efforts to stop the killing of civilians. But this is really a UN issue. This situation, however impossible to end, should be tended to by the UN and African Union. We need to stay out of direct involvement, principally because it is a no win situation that will need to be monitored perhaps forever. There are so many problems in the Sudan that can not be solved by anyone, like the fact the land there can't support enugh food to feed the people even under the best of times. This notion that China can solve the problem is illinformed. Any diplomatic attempt to put China in the middle of this mess is only to deflect attention from the issue itself and other western countries inablility or desire to get directly involved. Oil is the only resource that the Sudan has that is worth anything. But to think that the 3 warring sides will put down their weapons and sign a lasting accord if China pulls the plug is fools gold. These groups have signed so many treaties and cease fires over the years, pretty much none of them effective. The country has been at civil war for most of its years in existence and probably will for years to come. There is no real solution to the problem and though it is tragic, placing blame on the US or China is wrong.

There is a simple truth here...the UN will not solve the problem for many reasons...most already detailed here. China COULD help a great deal but won't. The US is the ONLY force on this planet capable of ending the genocide...but it will take long-term involvement and will cost American lives. We SHOULD do it...it is the right thing to do! But what politician will support extensive US involvement? The American public has shown twice in the last 50 years that when there isn't an "easy, quick fix" there is no desire to "stay the course". Nobody wants to see young American men and women die, I know what it's like to be in a strange land with folks trying to kill you but frankly, we are the only "Super Power" left and with that power comes a responsibility not to sit on our hands while tens of thousands of innocent people are butchered...I've heard all the "it's not our problem" rhetoric...but these are our brothers and sisters being slaughtered and, yes...we are our brother's keeper!

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by somerfrost

There is a simple truth here...the UN will not solve the problem for many reasons...most already detailed here. China COULD help a great deal but won't. The US is the ONLY force on this planet capable of ending the genocide...but it will take long-term involvement and will cost American lives. We SHOULD do it...it is the right thing to do! But what politician will support extensive US involvement? The American public has shown twice in the last 50 years that when there isn't an "easy, quick fix" there is no desire to "stay the course". Nobody wants to see young American men and women die, I know what it's like to be in a strange land with folks trying to kill you but frankly, we are the only "Super Power" left and with that power comes a responsibility not to sit on our hands while tens of thousands of innocent people are butchered...I've heard all the "it's not our problem" rhetoric...but these are our brothers and sisters being slaughtered and, yes...we are our brother's keeper!

There is nothing that the US could do. I love when people make these generalizations about what we could do without one single solid idea. Economic santions dont work there because they have no exports except oil and we dont get any from there. The country is too big and diverse for us to take over and monitor especially when all sides are going to be resentful of us after we rescue/police them. The Chinese are not going to let us go and shut off their oil production plants. It will only serve to become another costly occupation in a place where nothing will change after we leave. Sad but true.

[Downthestretch55]

Originally Posted by timmgirvan

DTS: Tutus' words are all well and good,but I fail to see what sanctions could be imposed that wouldn't increase an already impotent, failed diplomatic accord! What would China benefit from involvement in this situation? Forgive me, I'm not currently on top of this situation. Again,as Tutu pointed out, the UN has been ineffective in their efforts to date.

Timm,
In my post #13 I said that the UN has been ineffective previously.
As far as China, they have oil interests and it doesn't look to me like they'll jeopardize their energy sources.
I really don't see the USA doing much militarily as we're already spread very thin. Perhaps diplomatically with EU support.
I really don't know how this will all shake out, except that many will continue to die.
Cannon Shell raises some interesting points, and many that I agree with, especially on the problem of the region's ability to supply food for the populace, even in "good" times.
Like Somerfrost, I also wish that something effective could be done. At this point, I don't see what "it" is. Tragic is a word that comes to mind.

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by Downthestretch55

Timm,
In my post #13 I said that the UN has been ineffective previously.
As far as China, they have oil interests and it doesn't look to me like they'll jeopardize their energy sources.
I really don't see the USA doing much militarily as we're already spread very thin. Perhaps diplomatically with EU support.
I really don't know how this will all shake out, except that many will continue to die.
Cannon Shell raises some interesting points, and many that I agree with, especially on the problem of the region's ability to supply food for the populace, even in "good" times.
Like Somerfrost, I also wish that something effective could be done. At this point, I don't see what "it" is. Tragic is a word that comes to mind.

Though I am far from an expert on Sudanese affairs, I cant think of a way that we can really do anything that will change anything there. Hatred among the various tribes/sects/religions/etc. is not going to go away nor will our military scare anyone as we must play by the rules and the bad guys know this. The fact that some of the principals are getting rich and supplied off of Chinese oil money is also a issue that is not ours to solve. Saying that the Chinese can fix this situation is also not realistic. They have no dog in the fight except they have invested a large amount of money in the Sudanese oil industry which would probably not exist if not for the Chinese. I'm sure that they are not happy about the situation but it would make me more nervous if they shipped a hundred thousand Chinese troops into the african continent. This is a problem that has no answer in real life terms.

[somerfrost]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

There is nothing that the US could do. I love when people make these generalizations about what we could do without one single solid idea. Economic santions dont work there because they have no exports except oil and we dont get any from there. The country is too big and diverse for us to take over and monitor especially when all sides are going to be resentful of us after we rescue/police them. The Chinese are not going to let us go and shut off their oil production plants. It will only serve to become another costly occupation in a place where nothing will change after we leave. Sad but true.

We enforce the no-fly zone, we demand an end to all ethnic violence and we provide troops if necessary to safeguard the innocents. It would help if we had capable statesmen instead of politicians in the White House, maybe we could recruit other nations to help if we went about it correctly but in any event...the Sudanese army gets around on horseback, it is absolutely a lie that we can't protect people against the violence!

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by somerfrost

We enforce the no-fly zone, we demand an end to all ethnic violence and we provide troops if necessary to safeguard the innocents. It would help if we had capable statesmen instead of politicians in the White House, maybe we could recruit other nations to help if we went about it correctly but in any event...the Sudanese army gets around on horseback, it is absolutely a lie that we can't protect people against the violence!

If the Sudanese Army is so inept and gets around on horseback then why are we worrying about a "nofly" zone? Are you serious about demanding an end of ethnic violence? Let me answer as the Sudanese army will "Or what?" Capable statesman? Are you kidding? What would we trick the EU and Chinese into helping us? What about the rebels in the South who are enemies of both warring factions and us if you believe the rhetoric?

As harsh as this sounds, this mess cant be fixed, especially by us.

[somerfrost]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

If the Sudanese Army is so inept and gets around on horseback then why are we worrying about a "nofly" zone? Are you serious about demanding an end of ethnic violence? Let me answer as the Sudanese army will "Or what?" Capable statesman? Are you kidding? What would we trick the EU and Chinese into helping us? What about the rebels in the South who are enemies of both warring factions and us if you believe the rhetoric?

As harsh as this sounds, this mess cant be fixed, especially by us.

Because while their "army" consists of mass murderers and rapists on horseback, they also have attack helicopters which rain death on civilians...you'd know that if you kept up with news of the genocide! The first thing out of people's mouths is that this has gone on forever...well, this seems like a good time for it to stop! The first time they send one of their killer helicopters into our designated no-fly zone, we blow it to hell...end of death from the skies!

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by somerfrost

Because while their "army" consists of mass murderers and rapists on horseback, they also have attack helicopters which rain death on civilians...you'd know that if you kept up with news of the genocide! The first thing out of people's mouths is that this has gone on forever...well, this seems like a good time for it to stop! The first time they send one of their killer helicopters into our designated no-fly zone, we blow it to hell...end of death from the skies!

So if we eliminate helicoptors then the crisis will be solved? Spend a few minutes researching Sudan , not by reading news reports but about the entire situation of affairs there and tell me again if you really think that the elimination of attack helicoptors will do anything to help the situation.

Solving this crisis involves getting the people killing each other to stop WANTING to kill each other. We cant just play principal and expect things to get better. You think things are great in Somolia? How did that workout when we went there? Our military is designed to kill people, not police them. I thought that Iraq would have been a shining example for you of what happens when the military becomes a sitting duck trying to police rather than fight.

I understand that the idea of people being slaughtered is unsettling, but like I said before, let the UN unite the world to go over there and intervene. It is not our job.

[hi_im_god]

i signed the petition. now i feel much better.

it's nice i could do so much for the problems of the world so easily.

i'm surprise more people aren't doing this.

i still feel bad about the people in n korea though. i might start a string on the internet about them.

[somerfrost]

Originally Posted by hi_im_god

i signed the petition. now i feel much better.

it's nice i could do so much for the problems of the world so easily.

i'm surprise more people aren't doing this.

i still feel bad about the people in n korea though. i might start a string on the internet about them.

Making fun of people who speak out against injustice does nothing to make things better. Signing a petition won't stop the killing, but if enough people sign...political types notice. It's a small thing but better than nothing...cynical, self-serving mocking only confirms the view that some folks really have nothing, aside from themselves, to focus on.

[Downthestretch55]

Originally Posted by somerfrost

Making fun of people who speak out against injustice does nothing to make things better. Signing a petition won't stop the killing, but if enough people sign...political types notice. It's a small thing but better than nothing...cynical, self-serving mocking only confirms the view that some folks really have nothing, aside from themselves, to focus on.

Somerfrost,
Thanks for saying that. I was going to react to the poster you cited, but frankly, to do so would acknowledge a lame atempt at "humor" in a situation that, frankly, isn't funny at all.
I don't laugh at funerals either, especially those for starved children.
DTS

[hi_im_god]

Originally Posted by somerfrost

Making fun of people who speak out against injustice does nothing to make things better. Signing a petition won't stop the killing, but if enough people sign...political types notice. It's a small thing but better than nothing...cynical, self-serving mocking only confirms the view that some folks really have nothing, aside from themselves, to focus on.

being overly earnest against those who speak out against self important blowhards does nothing to make things better. posting a reply won't stop the blowhard, but if enough people reply...blowhards notice. it's a small thing but better than nothing...over earnest self important scolding only confirms the view that some folks have nothing, aside from a sense of moral superiority, to focus on.

[Downthestretch55]

Originally Posted by hi_im_god

being overly earnest against those who speak out against self important blowhards does nothing to make things better. posting a reply won't stop the blowhard, but if enough people reply...blowhards notice. it's a small thing but better than nothing...over earnest self important scolding only confirms the view that some folks have nothing, aside from a sense of moral superiority, to focus on.

HUH????

[Downthestretch55]

Originally Posted by Downthestretch55

HUH????

I'll add this cause I thought you were attempting "humor".
Now, here is real "humor" G-dub style....yuck, yuck.
http://www.commondreams.org/archive/2007/06/23/2059/

[timmgirvan]

Originally Posted by Downthestretch55

I'll add this cause I thought you were attempting "humor".
Now, here is real "humor" G-dub style....yuck, yuck.
http://www.commondreams.org/archive/2007/06/23/2059/

It figures!

[Downthestretch55]

Originally Posted by timmgirvan

It figures!

Timm,
You are correct, "it figures".
This might surprise you but on this I agree with Condi's efforts. Perhaps she'll be equally as effective with her diplomacy as she has been previously, though this time, I hope not.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...062400465.html

[Downthestretch55]

The tragedy continues.
Caution...don't read if you're "sensitive". It's still horrible.
http://www.commondreams.org/archive/2007/07/30/2861/

[timmgirvan]

Originally Posted by Downthestretch55

The tragedy continues.
Caution...don't read if you're "sensitive". It's still horrible.
http://www.commondreams.org/archive/2007/07/30/2861/

DTS: So the UN orders up 26,000 troops to go to Darfur(in a timely fashion-1yr) If China is backing Sudanese butchers, then the UN should be knocking on their door To stop the bloodshed!

[Mortimer]

Though I am far from an expert on Sudanese affairs













thud