For GR and KYRose

Originally Posted by Downthestretch55

In no way do I agree with the KKK. And, if memory serves, Byrd has apologized for the poor decisions he's made.

D-55, ask Trent Lott about how those apologies work. As to Robert Byrd..if the people of WVA want him...that's all that is important.

Ez

[Downthestretch55]

Originally Posted by ezrabrooks

D-55, ask Trent Lott about how those apologies work. As to Robert Byrd..if the people of WVA want him...that's all that is important.

Ez

Ez,
In reality, Sen. Byrd isn't one of my favorite guys. He's delivered "pork" year after year, and that's gotten him elected more than any other.
His early decisions, though apologized for, were indeed misguided. (wrong).
The people of WVA will keep voting for him as long as his ticker keeps ticking.
Basically, the one thing I agree with him on is his recent statement before the Senate. Go back and read the article.
DTS

[Cajungator26]

Originally Posted by Downthestretch55

Ez,
This thread has taken a different direction from where it started.
But since we're here, all I can say is that I agree with you about the plight of the "farm family"...or "family farm", however you say it.
Here in NY, so many dairy farms that have been in families for generations have gone out. It is so tragic to see my friends' tears when the auction comes and their herds are loaded on trailers. The stock goes to either another farm, if it has breeding, or to slaughter.
These animals were tended and loved each and every day of their lives.
It seems so sad to me, the "mom and pop" farms selling out because they can't possibly compete with the larger argi-biz operations a few states away.
I guess it comes down to markets and progress.
The same thing has happened when "big box" marketers come along and main street's little stores become vacant when folks go just outside of town to make their purchases. The shopping malls occupy what once was a corn field.
The empty farms remain, as do the empty stores. All the effort over all the years is gone in an anguished moment. Gavel down.
Then the kids try to hang on to whatever value remains. The estate tax takes away the little that is left.
Times have changed. The fields are subdivided for second home development by shrewd people that never knew what it was like to help that little heifer give birth to her first calf at 3 AM on a snowy night.
Yup, times have changed.
DTS

Wayne, that was touching. It seriously was... and it is a shame that we have come to this. I am one of a small group of consumers who will actually spend the extra $$ on buying from a family owned farm or store. The problem is that people want to cut corners anyway they can and because of this, the smaller family owned businesses just can't keep their heads above water. It's sad...

[Downthestretch55]

Originally Posted by Cajungator26

Wayne, that was touching. It seriously was... and it is a shame that we have come to this. I am one of a small group of consumers who will actually spend the extra $$ on buying from a family owned farm or store. The problem is that people want to cut corners anyway they can and because of this, the smaller family owned businesses just can't keep their heads above water. It's sad...

Cajun,
Thanks.
I also spend a bit more to support the little guys.
To me, it's just much nicer to go to them, have a chat, and walk away with the stuff that I went there for in the first place. These kinds of hard working people are my friends.
They can't afford advertising, nor can they buy goods by the boxcar or shipping container...so they can't discount because they've bought bulk.
But I'll keep giving them my business, just so they don't drown.
It's "small town America" to me...and I won't let it go.
DTS

[GenuineRisk]

Three cheers to DTS and Cajun for supporting the little guy! I like to buy local when I can, too. Not only is it good for small farmers, but it's also good for the environment because family farms are often vital habitats for all kinds of threatened and vulnerable species of wildlife.

I wanted to post a link to some myths/facts about the estate tax. As of 1998, there had never been a reported instance of a farm being lost to the estate tax. According to this link, only 3 in every 10,000 farms make up the bulk of an estate. The figure is similar for small businesses-- oh, just read the link; they put it better than I do.

http://www.faireconomy.org/estatetax/ETMythsFacts.html

I think the "People will lose their farms! Lose their businesses if we don't repeal it!" is scare tactics by the Republicans. FYI, Rupert, the Dems did try this year to raise the exemption to 3.5 million an individual and 7 million a couple and the Repubs shot it down because they want to abolish the tax entirely, not modify it. Here's a Washington Post article on that. It's actually pretty hard on the Dems for not being able to get people to understand that the estate tax is not a bad thing.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...053001182.html

Later, Gators! (and Cajungators) Danzig, I'm really going to the movies now. I swear it...

Originally Posted by GenuineRisk

Three cheers to DTS and Cajun for supporting the little guy! I like to buy local when I can, too. Not only is it good for small farmers, but it's also good for the environment because family farms are often vital habitats for all kinds of threatened and vulnerable species of wildlife.

I wanted to post a link to some myths/facts about the estate tax. As of 1998, there had never been a reported instance of a farm being lost to the estate tax. According to this link, only 3 in every 10,000 farms make up the bulk of an estate. The figure is similar for small businesses-- oh, just read the link; they put it better than I do.

http://www.faireconomy.org/estatetax/ETMythsFacts.html

I think the "People will lose their farms! Lose their businesses if we don't repeal it!" is scare tactics by the Republicans. FYI, Rupert, the Dems did try this year to raise the exemption to 3.5 million an individual and 7 million a couple and the Repubs shot it down because they want to abolish the tax entirely, not modify it. Here's a Washington Post article on that. It's actually pretty hard on the Dems for not being able to get people to understand that the estate tax is not a bad thing.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...053001182.html

Later, Gators! (and Cajungators) Danzig, I'm really going to the movies now. I swear it...

Those who post lies...are liars. I know personally of one farm family that had to liquidate to pay death taxes.. My universe is pretty small..so I just know what I see.

Ez

[Downthestretch55]

Originally Posted by ezrabrooks

Those who post lies...are liars. I know personally of one farm family that had to liquidate to pay death taxes.. My universe is pretty small..so I just know what I see.

Ez

Ez,
Take it easy.
Some of these folks live in very big cities.
They really don't know much about what it's like to live in a rural place.
Heck, with all the lights, they can't even see the stars at night.
So, my guess is that even though you say your universe is pretty small, it might be more than some see.
Take it easy. OK?
Educate. Don't accuse.
"Ya draw more flies with honey than with vinegar." If ya know what I mean.
DTS

[Danzig]

Originally Posted by GenuineRisk

Three cheers to DTS and Cajun for supporting the little guy! I like to buy local when I can, too. Not only is it good for small farmers, but it's also good for the environment because family farms are often vital habitats for all kinds of threatened and vulnerable species of wildlife.

I wanted to post a link to some myths/facts about the estate tax. As of 1998, there had never been a reported instance of a farm being lost to the estate tax. According to this link, only 3 in every 10,000 farms make up the bulk of an estate. The figure is similar for small businesses-- oh, just read the link; they put it better than I do.

http://www.faireconomy.org/estatetax/ETMythsFacts.html

I think the "People will lose their farms! Lose their businesses if we don't repeal it!" is scare tactics by the Republicans. FYI, Rupert, the Dems did try this year to raise the exemption to 3.5 million an individual and 7 million a couple and the Repubs shot it down because they want to abolish the tax entirely, not modify it. Here's a Washington Post article on that. It's actually pretty hard on the Dems for not being able to get people to understand that the estate tax is not a bad thing.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...053001182.html

Later, Gators! (and Cajungators) Danzig, I'm really going to the movies now. I swear it...

gotta go too! ah, high school football. didn't go to it when i was in school, and don't enjoy it now.


now, college and pro...that's some good stuff!

see everyone later. and remember, not hitting below the belt.

Originally Posted by Downthestretch55

Ez,
Take it easy.
Some of these folks live in very big cities.
They really don't know much about what it's like to live in a rural place.
Heck, with all the lights, they can't even see the stars at night.
So, my guess is that even though you say your universe is pretty small, it might be more than some see.
Take it easy. OK?
Educate. Don't accuse.
"Ya draw more flies with honey than with vinegar." If ya know what I mean.
DTS

D-55, Your right...my post wasn't exactly meant the way it came out..(knee jerk reactions always come back to haunt me).. I like GR...and with out a doubt, would love to spend the day at the track with her.. with no politics involved.

Ez

[Downthestretch55]

EZ, I'm sure that would be very cool, though I can't speak for her.
Belmont might be the track. Maybe Aqueduct.
I'd also like to meet up with her and her husband.
She comes across as a nice person.
Maybe next summer at Toga.
Might be worth the wait.
Lots of DTer's were there this past summer. Unfortunately, not me.
I won't get into the reason why...just that it s ucked.
See you someday.
I hope.
DTS

Originally Posted by Downthestretch55

EZ, I'm sure that would be very cool, though I can't speak for her.
Belmont might be the track. Maybe Aqueduct.
I'd also like to meet up with her and her husband.
She comes across as a nice person.
Maybe next summer at Toga.
Might be worth the wait.
Lots of DTer's were there this past summer. Unfortunately, not me.
I won't get into the reason why...just that it s ucked.
See you someday.
I hope.
DTS

DTS...I will make it to Toga one of these meets (on my list)...and when I do, I will try to look up every son of gun who posts here... After all of the left/right BS...we do have one thing in common..

Ez

[kentuckyrosesinmay]

Originally Posted by GenuineRisk

Hey, Rupert!

I know EXACTLY what this is referencing, so I'm happy to shed a little light-- the Republicans in Congress, who have been objecting to raising the minimum wage for several years, put in a bill to raise it-- in the same bill pushing to repeal the estate tax. The estate tax, of course, affects the estates of only the super super rich (top 2 percent) and ending it would really affect the gov't revenue, and eventually, support programs for people who don't have multimillion dollar estates. What the Dems are objecting to is not raising the minimum wage, but repealing the estate tax. But since the Republicans were crafty and put them in the same bill, by voting down the one they vote down the other. So, that's why Frist claims the Dems don't want the minimum wage raised. It's not that. It's that they don't want the estate tax repealed. They're making a hard decision-- voting down the immediate benefit of the working poor so as not to hurt them farther down the road, with the loss of the estate tax income. And I think they're hoping they can regain Congress soon, and get it raised without having to give dead rich guys a handout, too. They're in a tough position though. Hope they do the right thing.

As angry as this move by the Republicans makes me (putting the wage raise in the same bill as the estate tax repeal) I have to admire their craftiness-- they really know how to play the game to make the opposing side look like the bad guys, because they figure most people won't take time to explore the full story. Good for you for not taking it at face value.

Here's an interesting essay on the estate tax.

http://www.tnr.com/doc.mhtml?i=20060515&s=trb051506

DTS, I'll read the article in a few days. This is the first I've even been on DT today-- very busy at work! Miss you all much, my favorite libbers, cons, and swingers.

That's really interesting Genuine Risk...Thanks, I didn't know that.

Originally Posted by somerfrost

Robert Byrd....he makes some valid points but please, a former member of the KKK lost the right to be the voice of reason and compassion when he pulled the white hood over his head...

Not just a member ...

... he was a Grand Kleagle ... or some such nutty, hateful thing.

But don't worry ... there are lots of leftists with much higher moral standards than KKK Byrd ... like Eddy Kennedy ... and Willy Clinton.

Originally Posted by timmgirvan

Robert Byrd? Can anyone say moral compass?? And Robert Scheer..the most strident voice on the left??? I don't think so,my friend!

Scheer was fired by the Los Angeles Times because he was too extreme ... even for them.

Just imagine that ... too weird and nutty ... even for the LA Times.

And these are the folks they get inspiration from.

Originally Posted by Danzig188

lol

so did david duke...but apparently only liberals mean it, conservatives are faking.
!

The Republicans drummed David Duke out of their ranks ... even sending money and support to the other candidates to defeat him ... and yet ...

... the Democrats embraced ... and still do ... KKK Byrd.

Originally Posted by Rupert Pupkin

I didn't bother reading the article. I just skimmed it slightly because I saw it was by Robert Scherer. That guy is a joke. He used to do a column in the Los Angeles Times once a week. Luckily for the readers, he finally got fired. This guy is truly pitiful. He's like a broken record. His editorial was the same every week: Every bad thing in the whole world is because of George W. Bush.

Scherer has absolutely no shame. His columns were so one-sided and predictable that it was an embarassment. You'd think that at least once in a while he would try to show some type of objectivity. You would think that if he talked for a long enough time that something intelligent would come out of his mouth. Just by sheer chance, you would think that something intelligent may randomly come out of his mouth. I'm still waiting for it to happen. The L.A. Times has always been a liberal paper but even they couldn't stomach Scherer. He was an embarrassment to the paper.

I can't figure out how DTS or anyone else could like reading a guy like Scherer. My politics are definitely to the right of center but I don't like listening to one of these one-sided right-wingers who can't come up with an original thought. I don't like anyone who is going to insult my intelligence and only tell me half the story. I don't care if it's a right-winger or a left-winger.

It's sad how some of you will take the words of some of these people as carte-blanche. It's pathetic. Practically all of my thoughts and opinions are orginal thoughts. I don't like listening to a right-winger like Sean Hannity. I'm not going to learn anything from listening to a guy like that. You guys aren't going to learn anything from listening to idiots like Scherer.

I'm always skeptical of anything any of these people say. Just the other day, Senator Frist was being interviewed and was saying how the republicans want to pass a bill to raise the minimum wage but the democrats are aginst it. If I was as gullible as you guys, I would eat this up and belive that the republicans must want higher wages and the democrats must not. I actually don't know if what Frist said is true or not but I assume it's one of those half-truths that you constantly get from politicians. Even thought I normally like Bill Frist, I have a strong suspicion that he was only telling half the story.

You guys need to be more cynical about people in both parties. It is very rare that one of these politicians or columnists will be straight-forward and will want to tell you the truth. They don't want you to know the truth. They're just giving you one-side of the story trying to sell you their agenda.

Obviously ... they don't bother to try to understand who writes this wacky stuff ... and what his motivations are.

That would be too calm and rational. Leftists don't think ... they react emotionally ... and if someone strikes the right emotion ... they slobber all over him.

Look at all the useful idiots who slobbered over the likes of Stalin, Mao, and Pol Pot ... and the idiots today who wear t-shirts with an air-brushed photo of the brutal mass-murderer Che Guevara.

[kentuckyrosesinmay]

Originally Posted by pgardn

You see what is upsetting about this article. The guy has some valid points but then he starts with this ridiculous name calling, like on this board, and just loses credibility. You can bash Bush on his judgements, but when you attempt to make him into a stupid demon it just loses all its credibility. And thats sad because there are some valid points.

Its so easy to make a politician you dont like into someone stupid, ignorant, and evil. It makes them easier to hate, and then one never gets a clear view.

Yeah pgardn, I agree with you completely. Still, you can use the facts of articles such as these if you are knowledgable in the subject area and can decipher the BS from the facts. Credibility is EVERYTHING to me, and Bush isn't a stupid demon at all. It infuriates me when people point him out to be that way. Now, I personally believe that he lacks the criteria to be what I would call a truly brillant person, but he is no dummy. He wouldn't be in the White House if he was. However, I do question some of his judgements, and I don't know how much his advisors are influencing him, which I have a feeling is a whole lot. For that reason, I don't think that he can be held completely accountable for some of those judgements.

[GenuineRisk]

Originally Posted by ezrabrooks

D-55, Your right...my post wasn't exactly meant the way it came out..(knee jerk reactions always come back to haunt me).. I like GR...and with out a doubt, would love to spend the day at the track with her.. with no politics involved.

Ez

Hey, Ez; the like is mutual, and yes, I hope we get a day to hang out at the track, too. You too, DTS. I'm sorry about the family you know; I just haven't been able to find any specific accounts with names, etc., of people losing small family farms as a result of the estate tax. Neil Harl did a study on midwest farmers and couldn't find any who lost their farms due to estate tax. I'm not discounting your acquaintance's story, but I'm curious as to the specifics- what was the value of the farm (a farm couple can pass on 4.1 million dollars untaxed as long as the descendants continue to farm for at least ten years and there are few family farms worth anywhere near that) , was it entirely due to estate tax or were there outstanding debts, etc. In any event, if their heirs sold when they didn't want to, then it sounds like bad planning on behalf of the farm owners-- they should have been able to gift enough of their assets to their heirs before death to avoid estate taxation. But possibly they didn't know how to do any of that stuff, which is a shame. Finances are so complicated and boy, it's hard to find info on it. It took me two books to figure out what to do with setting up retirement accounts for myself and I have barely anything to put in it each month.

Once again, the google nerd(me) finds an article about farms and the estate tax- from 2001, so it's a bit out of date in that the bill discussed in it did pass, but worthwhile reading for info on the estate tax and how it applies to farms:

http://www.responsiblewealth.org/pre...nyt_farms.html

And "Black Dahlia" (the movie I saw last night) sucks big fuzzy bunnies. Holy cow; what a bad film. I'd have been better off staying home and chatting with all of you-- more educational and more fun.

[Downthestretch55]

Originally Posted by GenuineRisk

Hey, Ez; the like is mutual, and yes, I hope we get a day to hang out at the track, too. You too, DTS. I'm sorry about the family you know; I just haven't been able to find any specific accounts with names, etc., of people losing small family farms as a result of the estate tax. Neil Harl did a study on midwest farmers and couldn't find any who lost their farms due to estate tax. I'm not discounting your acquaintance's story, but I'm curious as to the specifics- what was the value of the farm (a farm couple can pass on 4.1 million dollars untaxed as long as the descendants continue to farm for at least ten years and there are few family farms worth anywhere near that) , was it entirely due to estate tax or were there outstanding debts, etc. In any event, if their heirs sold when they didn't want to, then it sounds like bad planning on behalf of the farm owners-- they should have been able to gift enough of their assets to their heirs before death to avoid estate taxation. But possibly they didn't know how to do any of that stuff, which is a shame. Finances are so complicated and boy, it's hard to find info on it. It took me two books to figure out what to do with setting up retirement accounts for myself and I have barely anything to put in it each month.

Once again, the google nerd(me) finds an article about farms and the estate tax- from 2001, so it's a bit out of date in that the bill discussed in it did pass, but worthwhile reading for info on the estate tax and how it applies to farms:

http://www.responsiblewealth.org/pre...nyt_farms.html

And "Black Dahlia" (the movie I saw last night) sucks big fuzzy bunnies. Holy cow; what a bad film. I'd have been better off staying home and chatting with all of you-- more educational and more fun.

GR,
It's not just one farm, it's very many.
The stories will never hit the news. No blogs, no front pages.
These are just decent people that have lived with their land and animals for a long time.
Poor planning...sure.
Heck, if they could have paid their last feed bill, they could have paid for that too.
The times have changed.
What was once something that could be passed on to the next generation now has lawyers taking their take.
Leases for wind turbines and powerline right of ways.
Such a mess. Way to much for me to sort out.
I throw up my hands and scream an anguished cry!
The days of the farm family are going away. Very sad.
The land grows back to poplars and thorn apples.
The same fields where I picked rocks, pitched hay bales. So very sad.
DTS

[GenuineRisk]

Originally Posted by Downthestretch55

GR,
It's not just one farm, it's very many.
The stories will never hit the news. No blogs, no front pages.
These are just decent people that have lived with their land and animals for a long time.
Poor planning...sure.
Heck, if they could have paid their last feed bill, they could have paid for that too.
The times have changed.
What was once something that could be passed on to the next generation now has lawyers taking their take.
Leases for wind turbines and powerline right of ways.
Such a mess. Way to much for me to sort out.
I throw up my hands and scream an anguished cry!
The days of the farm family are going away. Very sad.
The land grows back to poplars and thorn apples.
The same fields where I picked rocks, pitched hay bales. So very sad.
DTS

Oh, DTS, I don't dispute that one bit, but I don't think the loss of family farms is due to the estate tax-- I think it's due to megafarms buying up land and trashing the environment in order to put out pesticide-laced, hormone and anti-biotic infused animal products at a cheaper price than the small farmer can. And it's awful. And frankly, the land being worth more to developers eager to build McMansions for noveau riche than it is as farmland, so it's not worth it to try to keep it-- struggle with a mortgage and feed bill costs for the rest of one's life or sell it off to developers and retire? And that sucks too. If a farmer is selling off his farm before he dies, then it's not the estate tax doing it to him.

In the end, I think it's up to us as consumers, maybe being willing to do with a little less so that we can buy from small farms and humane farmers and try to keep them in business. Politicians can accept money from the big-farm lobbyists (how do you spell that?) and can push through subsidies that screw over the little guy, but in the end, if we aren't willing to buy from those companies, they can't maintain their chokehold. But it requires being willing to sacrifice a little convenience and a little from our pocketbooks. But hey, I struggle to make ends meet and yet I still seem to have a TV, cellphone, computer, etc. If I can afford that, I can afford to spend an extra $5-10 a week buying organic and local.

And a push towards farm tourism, too, I think. I read that a lot of family farms are keeping afloat by charging for hayrides, pick your own apples, etc. Silly, maybe, but if it keeps money in their pockets and traditional farming methods alive, then bring on the tourists, I say!

I'm a city girl now, but I grew up in farm country. My uncle grew up on a farm; my great-uncle owned dairy cows and delivered milk to my grandmother's door when I was little (I remember her putting the empty bottles back outside to be picked up and reused). And it kills me to see the land torn up and replaced by subdivisions. The cow farm across from my high school is now all developed. As is the farm that lay across the street from my old neighborhood. So depressing...