Maiden Derby winners

[Danzig]

Originally Posted by The Indomitable DrugS

For the people who think that breeding microscopic size foal crops, somehow makes for deeper and more competitive top class racing and more talented horses.....

* The 1933 Kentucky Derby was won by a horse named Broker's Tip. Not only did he win the race as a maiden---but, he never won another race the rest of his career. His lifetime record was 14-1-2-1. His Derby is known as "the fightin' Derby" because his rider, and the rider of the 2nd place finisher were literally fighting with each other during the stretch run.

That same year, the legendary Seabiscuit was foaled. He lost five straight races at Rockingham Park, to run his lifetime record to 0-for-17, but heck, he sure did improve from there!

As for our first triple crown winner Sir Barton---he was 0-for-6 as a 2-year-old, and made his 3yo debut in the Kentucky Derby off an 8 month layoff. He was only entered by his trainer to be a rabbit for stablemate Billy Kellly.

Well, he was gunned to the lead, and never stopped. Billy Kelly finished 2nd. He won the Preakness 4 days later, the Withers 10 days after that, and than the Belmont Stakes.

Not that Seabiscuit, Sir Barton, and Billy Kelly weren't fine horses---however, it is impossible to do stuff like today. The horses are simply much more talented overall....and there is a much greater volume of them in training.

If a trainer even tried to run a maiden in the Kentucky Derby, off an 8 month layoff, simply to serve the purpose as a rabbit for his stablemate---not only would that horse not become a triple crown winner, but his trainer would be knocked pretty damn hard by the press.

its not that smaller crops make for more competitive racing...but breeding an outstanding individual back then i feel was a bigger accomplishment than now. they've always said when a horse has NO competition, than he competes with the clock. man o war did that and then some. there's a reason he is still held in reverence even today-and there's a reason the awards given to the top horses every year is called the Eclipse.

[The Indomitable DrugS]

Originally Posted by Danzig188

they've always said when a horse has NO competition, than he competes with the clock. man o war did that and then some.

Man O' War was foaled in 1917, he was one of just 1,680 race horses foaled that year. That is the 2nd smallest foal crop of any year in the entire 1900s. Only the crop of 1919, which had just 15 fewer horses, was smaller.

Now, lets say that half of the 1,680 were males. So, we'd have 840 male foals in his crop. Of those 840---I bet you a surprsing percentage never ran a single race in their career. However, I don't have the numbers to that, so I can't say how many did.

A record 463,827 race horses were foaled in the 1980's. Just 18,857 were foaled in the 1910's. On the Blood Horse's List for top 100 of the century, ZERO horses foaled in the 1980's made the top thirty!!

Man O' War made 11 starts as a 3-year-old. In those 11 starts he beat fields of 8, 2, 1, 1, 1, 2, 2, 1, 1, 3, 1

He was simply just MUCH the best of a handful of horses--and his connections adoritly avoided a showdown with the best horse in the land outside of his crop.

In Man O' War's entire racing career---he beat a GRAND TOTAL OF TWO horses that weren't from his foal crop...and both of them in match races, where he was able to use his superior early speed to his advantage...and get loose early leads.

I guess I'm supposed to consider him the #1 horse of the century because he once ran a 1 1/4 in 2:01 4/5ths? Or 1 1/2 miles in 2:28 4/5ths? The fastest six furlongs he ran was when he was beaten a half length to upset in 1:11 1/5ths. Oh yeah, we also have to assume the tracks were 20 lengths slower back than.

[Cajungator26]

While I'm not qualified to speak of Man O' War's race record, I'm sure glad he was around...

Without him, we wouldn't have gotten War Admiral, who in turn sired Busanda, dam of Buckpasser, who sired Relaxing, who was the dam of one of my favorite horses of all time... EASY GOER.

[The Indomitable DrugS]

Easy Goer was my favorite horse when I first started watching racing.

He was from the largest foal crop (1986) of all-time.

One of three no doubt about it all-time GREAT horses from that crop. The others being Sunday Silence and Kentucky-bred Nashwan. Nashwan is the only horse in history to win Britan's four most important races in the same season, they being the 2K Guineas, Derby, Eclipse, and King George.

Off the top of my head, others from that crop include: King Glorious, Breeders Cup Classic winner, and BC Sprint 3rd Black Tie Affair, 12 furlong world record holder Hawkster, The great filly sprinter Safely Kept, Prized (who made his career debut on grass in the BC Turf and won it) There were some very good horses from obscure regions as well...like a Clever Trevor, who ran a solid 2nd to Easy Goer in the Travers after winning like 10-of-14. Western Playboy set a track record at Turfway in the Spiral and won the PA Derby by about 20 lengths. Flying Contentinal was an excellent horse. Is It True ran some big figures at age 2.

[Dunbar]

Originally Posted by The Indomitable DrugS

He won his 2nd career start by 10 lengths, in hand throughout.

Well, obviously! He is one of TIDS's 4 "trend" horses, so he had to have won his 2nd career start by daylight!

--Dunbar

[Danzig]

Originally Posted by The Indomitable DrugS

Man O' War was foaled in 1917, he was one of just 1,680 race horses foaled that year. That is the 2nd smallest foal crop of any year in the entire 1900s. Only the crop of 1919, which had just 15 fewer horses, was smaller.

Now, lets say that half of the 1,680 were males. So, we'd have 840 male foals in his crop. Of those 840---I bet you a surprsing percentage never ran a single race in their career. However, I don't have the numbers to that, so I can't say how many did.

A record 463,827 race horses were foaled in the 1980's. Just 18,857 were foaled in the 1910's. On the Blood Horse's List for top 100 of the century, ZERO horses foaled in the 1980's made the top thirty!!

Man O' War made 11 starts as a 3-year-old. In those 11 starts he beat fields of 8, 2, 1, 1, 1, 2, 2, 1, 1, 3, 1

He was simply just MUCH the best of a handful of horses--and his connections adoritly avoided a showdown with the best horse in the land outside of his crop.

In Man O' War's entire racing career---he beat a GRAND TOTAL OF TWO horses that weren't from his foal crop...and both of them in match races, where he was able to use his superior early speed to his advantage...and get loose early leads.

I guess I'm supposed to consider him the #1 horse of the century because he once ran a 1 1/4 in 2:01 4/5ths? Or 1 1/2 miles in 2:28 4/5ths? The fastest six furlongs he ran was when he was beaten a half length to upset in 1:11 1/5ths. Oh yeah, we also have to assume the tracks were 20 lengths slower back than.

i really wish this bit of fiction would cease. he did not duck exterminator, who was invited, and didn't show to what turned into a match race between man o war and sir barton. and don't forget, sir barton also defeated exterminator-hard to say which of those was the best older horse.
i suppose you can make man o wars stats fit your agenda of him being overrated. have at it.

[The Indomitable DrugS]

Man O' War isn't just overrated.....he's massively overrated and clearly does not belong in the top 25 horses of the 1900's.

And as for him ducking Exterminator......


"Kilmer was anxious to take on the super horse; it was Sam Riddle, Man o' War's owner, who appeared to duck the issue. Exterminator shipped from Saratoga to Canada where he won a stakes on August 28. Riddle immediately announced that Man o' war would contest the Saratoga Cup three days later figuring the coast was clear. When Kilmer got wind of this Exterminator was quickly brought back.

Racing writer David Alexander put it this way: "Exterminator came back to win the Saratoga Cup, despite the fact he had had a hard race three days before. When the frightening news of Exterminator's return reached Riddle, however, he withdrew Man o' War from the weight-for-age event."

[ManilaRose]

Originally Posted by jman5581

Young Jock was a maiden. He had two other starts, best he had done was second prior to the Kentucky Derby.

He only won one other race after the Derby.

Or maybe this was just at 3??? NTRA has him at only 2 other starts before Derby. ???

I'm pretty sure Young Jock is also the only rapper to ever win the Kentucky Derby.

I guess someone DID get the innuendo And after that, he was preeeeetty tipsy.

[Danzig]

Originally Posted by The Indomitable DrugS

Man O' War isn't just overrated.....he's massively overrated and clearly does not belong in the top 25 horses of the 1900's.

And as for him ducking Exterminator......


"Kilmer was anxious to take on the super horse; it was Sam Riddle, Man o' War's owner, who appeared to duck the issue. Exterminator shipped from Saratoga to Canada where he won a stakes on August 28. Riddle immediately announced that Man o' war would contest the Saratoga Cup three days later figuring the coast was clear. When Kilmer got wind of this Exterminator was quickly brought back.

Racing writer David Alexander put it this way: "Exterminator came back to win the Saratoga Cup, despite the fact he had had a hard race three days before. When the frightening news of Exterminator's return reached Riddle, however, he withdrew Man o' War from the weight-for-age event."

man o war ran in the jockey club stakes, in which exterminator could have run, and his owner chose not to-it was weight for age, and evidently he didn't want to give weight to man o war.
exterminator was invited to that match race, and was pulled out. same reason, refusal to run under weight for age conditions. if he really felt he could beat man o war, why not run?
also, there had always been plans to run man o war at four-they felt there was plenty of time to face the gelding-but when they were told the kind of weight he'd have to carry, they retired him instead.

i just don't see how you can consider his abilities, under the weights he carried, the times he ran, and the ease with which he won, and think he's overrated. also consider the horsemen who thought he was so special. i mean, a three year old carrying 139. a two year old carrying 130 and above like it was nothing.

[Linny]

remember though, the difference between the best and the worst was far closer then than now. When 4000 TB's were registered every year the range of talents was small and going from non entity to star while rare was not unheard of.
First of all, even as late as Broker's Tip's win, the Derby was not the "be all and end all" of American racing. There was not a "race to the Derby or (forgive me Steve) a "Derby Trail." Winter racing was a rarity and as such most 3yo's were making their first or second start of the season when they ran in Louisville. Many were being pointed for important fixtures like the Belmont the American Derby or the Dwyer! Since the Derby was not the focus of the first 1/2 of the season, the race was rarely if ever overfilled. Running rabbits was popular and easy as the Derby was just another race.
The Triple Crown had not co-alesced at the time and when Gallant Fox won the TC, the Preakness was before the Derby. The schedule that we know as the TC was what it was because it followed the path from northward from farms in KY to MD to NY, geographically.
Even today though we see horses who are G1 placed maidens, Patriot Act and Nolan's Cat stand out from a few years ago. Both have turned out to be useful, but hardly stars. In fact Nolan's Cat is quite rare as he was a G1 placed maiden at 3, not 2. This ties to the "range argument" in that for 2yo's there are fewer running than the older population and the difference between a MSW at Belmont and a race like the Champagne or the Lane's End is relatively small.

[Hickory Hill Hoff]

Originally Posted by The Indomitable DrugS

Easy Goer was my favorite horse when I first started watching racing.

He was from the largest foal crop (1986) of all-time.

One of three no doubt about it all-time GREAT horses from that crop. The others being Sunday Silence and Kentucky-bred Nashwan. Nashwan is the only horse in history to win Britan's four most important races in the same season, they being the 2K Guineas, Derby, Eclipse, and King George.

Off the top of my head, others from that crop include: King Glorious, Breeders Cup Classic winner, and BC Sprint 3rd Black Tie Affair, 12 furlong world record holder Hawkster, The great filly sprinter Safely Kept, Prized (who made his career debut on grass in the BC Turf and won it) There were some very good horses from obscure regions as well...like a Clever Trevor, who ran a solid 2nd to Easy Goer in the Travers after winning like 10-of-14. Western Playboy set a track record at Turfway in the Spiral and won the PA Derby by about 20 lengths. Flying Contentinal was an excellent horse. Is It True ran some big figures at age 2.

1986 was the first year I got into racing...that 1989 group was very very good!

[The Indomitable DrugS]

Originally Posted by Danzig188

i just don't see how you can consider his abilities, under the weights he carried, the times he ran, and the ease with which he won, and think he's overrated. also consider the horsemen who thought he was so special.

So, he's justified as the #1 horse of the 1900's because he ran fast times for his day, carried a lot of weight, won by big margins, and horseman thought he was special?

Roseben carried 150lbs on multiple occasions (12lbs more than Man O' War ever carried) and routinely gave between 50-to-60 lbs in weight to his opposition. Oh yeah, in a 20 length victory, he also ran 7 furlongs at Belmont Park, in 1:22 flat, breaking the North American record by almost three full seconds.

His track record stood at Belmont for 51 years, until Bold Ruler broke it in 1957

Roseben also won 52 races. Needless to say, he wasn't in the top 100.

The greatest spin master of all-time could never make a rational case that this horse (Man O' War) accomplished more than a Secretariat, or Spectacular Bid, or a Dr. Fager.

And in my own personal opinion, from a talent standpoint, he was also light-years behind those horses.

[Danzig]

Originally Posted by The Indomitable DrugS

So, he's justified as the #1 horse of the 1900's because he ran fast times for his day, carried a lot of weight, won by big margins, and horseman thought he was special?

Roseben carried 150lbs on multiple occasions (12lbs more than Man O' War ever carried) and routinely gave between 50-to-60 lbs in weight to his opposition. Oh yeah, in a 20 length victory, he also ran 7 furlongs at Belmont Park, in 1:22 flat, breaking the North American record by almost three full seconds.

His track record stood at Belmont for 51 years, until Bold Ruler broke it in 1957

Roseben also won 52 races. Needless to say, he wasn't in the top 100.

The greatest spin master of all-time could never make a rational case that this horse (Man O' War) accomplished more than a Secretariat, or Spectacular Bid, or a Dr. Fager.

And in my own personal opinion, from a talent standpoint, he was also light-years behind those horses.

all i know is, you're the first person i've ever seen call the original big red overrated...very novel! bloodhorse ranked him #1, as did many others...most everyone else has him top five when we get into lists on here--top ten is the lowest, usually if people throw in international rankings.

as for man o war vs secretariat, they both have similarities--man o war usually comes out on top due to secs five losses. but man o war was the secretariat of his day-and most old timers said secretariat was man o war re-incarnated. as for doc fager, he gets less respect due to the fact he is considered to have lacked stamina, which is something the other two clearly did NOT.

have you ever read a detailed bio, or maybe even the t'bred times legends book on man o war? i think you're selling him short. but that's your right i suppose. i just can't imagine that so many would still be so in awe of him if he was undeserving.

[The Indomitable DrugS]

Originally Posted by Danzig188

i just can't imagine that so many would still be so in awe of him if he was undeserving.

IMO, You, and many others have GREATLY overestimated the skills of turf writers and horseman who were around during that time.

[Sightseek]

Originally Posted by Danzig188

i really wish this bit of fiction would cease. he did not duck exterminator, who was invited, and didn't show to what turned into a match race between man o war and sir barton. and don't forget, sir barton also defeated exterminator-hard to say which of those was the best older horse.
i suppose you can make man o wars stats fit your agenda of him being overrated. have at it.

You might enjoy this video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h3Xkunfywo4

[Cajungator26]

Originally Posted by Sightseek

You might enjoy this video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h3Xkunfywo4

Thanks for posting this... if that horse wasn't GREAT, I don't know what horse is. Built like a brick shithouse.

[Sightseek]

Originally Posted by Cajungator26

Thanks for posting this... if that horse wasn't GREAT, I don't know what horse is. Built like a brick shithouse.

My grandfather had a statue of Man O' War that I would stare at all the time...I blame him for my horse obsession.

[The Indomitable DrugS]

Originally Posted by Cajungator26

Thanks for posting this... if that horse wasn't GREAT, I don't know what horse is. Built like a brick shithouse.

He was great at beating anemic fields of truely weak horses, from a foal crop that was 1,680 in size.

[Cajungator26]

Originally Posted by The Indomitable DrugS

He was great at beating anemic fields of truely weak horses, from a foal crop that was 1,680 in size.

I don't care who he beat or didn't beat... just LOOK AT HIM. Jesus...

I haven't seen a thoroughbred with a neck like that in my lifetime!