Maiden Derby winners

The Indomitable DrugS · #1 02-15-2007, 11:23 PM

For the people who think that breeding microscopic size foal crops, somehow makes for deeper and more competitive top class racing and more talented horses.....

* The 1933 Kentucky Derby was won by a horse named Broker's Tip. Not only did he win the race as a maiden---but, he never won another race the rest of his career. His lifetime record was 14-1-2-1. His Derby is known as "the fightin' Derby" because his rider, and the rider of the 2nd place finisher were literally fighting with each other during the stretch run.

That same year, the legendary Seabiscuit was foaled. He lost five straight races at Rockingham Park, to run his lifetime record to 0-for-17, but heck, he sure did improve from there!

As for our first triple crown winner Sir Barton---he was 0-for-6 as a 2-year-old, and made his 3yo debut in the Kentucky Derby off an 8 month layoff. He was only entered by his trainer to be a rabbit for stablemate Billy Kellly.

Well, he was gunned to the lead, and never stopped. Billy Kelly finished 2nd. He won the Preakness 4 days later, the Withers 10 days after that, and than the Belmont Stakes.

Not that Seabiscuit, Sir Barton, and Billy Kelly weren't fine horses---however, it is impossible to do stuff like today. The horses are simply much more talented overall....and there is a much greater volume of them in training.

If a trainer even tried to run a maiden in the Kentucky Derby, off an 8 month layoff, simply to serve the purpose as a rabbit for his stablemate---not only would that horse not become a triple crown winner, but his trainer would be knocked pretty damn hard by the press.

Sightseek · #2 02-15-2007, 11:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Indomitable DrugS

For the people who think that breeding microscopic size foal crops, somehow makes for deeper and more competitive top class racing and more talented horses.....

* The 1933 Kentucky Derby was won by a horse named Broker's Tip. Not only did he win the race as a maiden---but, he never won another race the rest of his career. His lifetime record was 14-1-2-1. His Derby is known as "the fightin' Derby" because his rider, and the rider of the 2nd place finisher were literally fighting with each other during the stretch run.

That same year, the legendary Seabiscuit was foaled. He lost five straight races at Rockingham Park, to run his lifetime record to 0-for-17, but heck, he sure did improve from there!

As for our first triple crown winner Sir Barton---he was 0-for-6 as a 2-year-old, and made his 3yo debut in the Kentucky Derby off an 8 month layoff. He was only entered by his trainer to be a rabbit for stablemate Billy Kellly.

Well, he was gunned to the lead, and never stopped. Billy Kelly finished 2nd. He won the Preakness 4 days later, the Withers 10 days after that, and than the Belmont Stakes.

Not that Seabiscuit, Sir Barton, and Billy Kelly weren't fine horses---however, it is impossible to do stuff like today. The horses are simply much more talented overall....and there is a much greater volume of them in training.

If a trainer even tried to run a maiden in the Kentucky Derby, off an 8 month layoff, simply to serve the purpose as a rabbit for his stablemate---not only would that horse not become a triple crown winner, but his trainer would be knocked pretty damn hard by the press.

Broker's Tip, I believe is also one of the few Thoroughbreds buried at Churchill Downs.

Following is the photograph taken of that "Fighting Finish", for those who haven't seen it:

http://www.spiletta.com/UTHOF/brokerstip.jpg

I believe this photograph was captured when a down and out drunken photographer woke up from passing out in the infield right next to the finish line and looked up just in time. This story was included with several other short stories in the book; Finished Lines.

The Indomitable DrugS · #3 02-15-2007, 11:39 PM

There was a third maiden who won the Kentucky Derby, does anyone remember his name and what year he was from?

somerfrost · #4 02-15-2007, 11:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Indomitable DrugS

For the people who think that breeding microscopic size foal crops, somehow makes for deeper and more competitive top class racing and more talented horses.....

* The 1933 Kentucky Derby was won by a horse named Broker's Tip. Not only did he win the race as a maiden---but, he never won another race the rest of his career. His lifetime record was 14-1-2-1. His Derby is known as "the fightin' Derby" because his rider, and the rider of the 2nd place finisher were literally fighting with each other during the stretch run.

That same year, the legendary Seabiscuit was foaled. He lost five straight races at Rockingham Park, to run his lifetime record to 0-for-17, but heck, he sure did improve from there!

As for our first triple crown winner Sir Barton---he was 0-for-6 as a 2-year-old, and made his 3yo debut in the Kentucky Derby off an 8 month layoff. He was only entered by his trainer to be a rabbit for stablemate Billy Kellly.

Well, he was gunned to the lead, and never stopped. Billy Kelly finished 2nd. He won the Preakness 4 days later, the Withers 10 days after that, and than the Belmont Stakes.

Not that Seabiscuit, Sir Barton, and Billy Kelly weren't fine horses---however, it is impossible to do stuff like today. The horses are simply much more talented overall....and there is a much greater volume of them in training.

If a trainer even tried to run a maiden in the Kentucky Derby, off an 8 month layoff, simply to serve the purpose as a rabbit for his stablemate---not only would that horse not become a triple crown winner, but his trainer would be knocked pretty damn hard by the press.

Again, citing a couple isolated examples proves nothing! There have always been, and probably always will be horses that take awhile to "get it"....John Henry was bought for what? He turned his career around rather nicely didn't he? Then there was that horse who raced awhile and ran awful until they switched surfaces...he turned out ok...Cigar was his name I think! Recently there was a claimer who has done ok too...named Lava Man. Real Quiet and that horse of DWL's, had Antley given him a better ride in the Belmont...Also, when Sir Barton won the TC, there was no such thing...a decade later a NY writer coined the phrase, MOW's conections felt the Derby wasn't worth a trip "west". Maidens win stake races, it happens...with or without a buzzer!

Sightseek · #5 02-15-2007, 11:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Indomitable DrugS

There was a third maiden who won the Kentucky Derby, does anyone remember his name and what year he was from?

Stone Street in 1908?

KirisClown · #6 02-16-2007, 12:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Indomitable DrugS

There was a third maiden who won the Kentucky Derby, does anyone remember his name and what year he was from?

Buchanan - 1884

The Indomitable DrugS · #7 02-16-2007, 12:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by somerfrost

John Henry was bought for what? He turned his career around rather nicely didn't he?

Yes. But, John Henry didn't win his first Grade 1 race until he was a 5-year-old. He didn't exactly go from struggling at the bottom, to the best around, over night.

And, If you assume that only the best horses were being bred to each other (they weren't) back when the foal crops were so small---than there is no way John Henry would have existed.

Spectacular Bid's 2nd dam was a very mediocre horse, and his dam raced on the Northern California fair circuits. He's another that wouldn't have existed.

Secretariat's dam never won a race, but she came from a very good family. Affirmed's dam wasn't much horse, and she had eight siblings, none of which earned black type. Cigar's dam ran 7 times and never won.

Seattle Slew was sold for like 16K or something at auction.

blackthroatedwind · #8 02-16-2007, 12:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Indomitable DrugS

There was a third maiden who won the Kentucky Derby, does anyone remember his name and what year he was from?

Giacomo?

The Indomitable DrugS · #9 02-16-2007, 12:45 AM

He won his 2nd career start by 10 lengths, in hand throughout.

mark2061mn · #10 02-16-2007, 02:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Indomitable DrugS

There was a third maiden who won the Kentucky Derby, does anyone remember his name and what year he was from?

giacamo?

Cajungator26 · #11 02-16-2007, 09:48 AM

I'm pretty sure Giacomo had won one start prior to the derby.

somerfrost · #12 02-16-2007, 11:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Indomitable DrugS

Yes. But, John Henry didn't win his first Grade 1 race until he was a 5-year-old. He didn't exactly go from struggling at the bottom, to the best around, over night.

And, If you assume that only the best horses were being bred to each other (they weren't) back when the foal crops were so small---than there is no way John Henry would have existed.

Spectacular Bid's 2nd dam was a very mediocre horse, and his dam raced on the Northern California fair circuits. He's another that wouldn't have existed.

Secretariat's dam never won a race, but she came from a very good family. Affirmed's dam wasn't much horse, and she had eight siblings, none of which earned black type. Cigar's dam ran 7 times and never won.

Seattle Slew was sold for like 16K or something at auction.

Ah, but those are modern examples you are using! And regarding breeding lines if you equate "best" to track performance, you are way off base...many Blue Hens did little on the track, breeding is a lot more complicated than simply looking at records of dam and sire.

#13 02-16-2007, 11:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cajungator26

I'm pretty sure Giacomo had won one start prior to the derby.

Young Jock was a maiden. He had two other starts, best he had done was second prior to the Kentucky Derby.

He only won one other race after the Derby.

Or maybe this was just at 3??? NTRA has him at only 2 other starts before Derby. ???

Cajungator26 · #14 02-16-2007, 12:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jman5581

Young Jock was a maiden. He had two other starts, best he had done was second prior to the Kentucky Derby.

He only won one other race after the Derby.

You're wrong. Giacomo broke his maiden on October 23, 2004 by 10 lengths at Santa Anita. This race was also his first 2 turn race.

#15 02-16-2007, 12:08 PM

Okay, yeah, I just did a quick search. He had 7 starts prior to the Derby. Won by 10 in his second.

Pedigree Ann · #16 02-16-2007, 12:08 PM

In the days when the Futurity in New York (whichever track) was the biggest purse on the continent by a factor of 5 or 10, many trainers deliberately TRIED to keep their best runners maidens, because maidens got a significant weight-break in the Futurity. They would give them racing experience by running with a stablemate and declaring to win with the other horse, which means that the better horse would be pulled up late to let the stablemate finish ahead of it. Sir Barton was kept a maiden for this reason and the ploy almost worked; he finished second in the Futurity. So he was still a maiden, but a very accomplished one, when he won the Kentucky Derby the next spring.

Just recently, the filly Hollywood Story was so busy placing in stakes races that she didn't get around to breaking her maiden until she won the Hollywood Starlet S (G1).