ahh..the good ole days..

[dellinger63]

Originally Posted by Danzig

i just read yesterday about a case against one of our own soldiers for blindfolding and then shooting four iraqis in the head. so, no, not a beheading-but certainly in a similar vein. glad you find it all so amusing.

I'm sure he'll be treated like a hero similar to how they treat theirs? And somehow I missed that story. A link would be helpful. Thanks

[Danzig]

i just want to be very clear here. i don't think we are 'just like them' or acting 'just like them'. and i want it to stay that way. i get that war is hell, i understand we must take care of ourselves first. but we don't need to cross a fine line, where we become almost like what we're fighting-and try to justify it by saying we're the ones wearing the white hats here.

[Danzig]

Originally Posted by dellinger63

I'm sure he'll be treated like a hero similar to how they treat theirs? And somehow I missed that story. A link would be helpful. Thanks

http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/...5lvbAD96E0T180


http://www.startribune.com/world/396...D3aPc:_Yyc:aUU

[Antitrust32]

Originally Posted by Danzig

i think so too...
by the same token, we can't torture prisoners and then take offense when they treat our men and women in a similar manner. that is not to say that we should put enemy combatants up in a hilton garden inn either.

LOL we are nothing like them.

If they treated us in a similar manner... we wouldnt be at war to begin with. I dont think ANY United States citizens would have been flying airplanes into buildings in Pakistan or Afghanistan.

I wish they treated our soldiers in a similar manner.

[Danzig]

Originally Posted by Antitrust32

LOL we are nothing like them.

If they treated us in a similar manner... we wouldnt be at war to begin with. I dont think ANY United States citizens would have been flying airplanes into buildings in Pakistan or Afghanistan.

I wish they treated our soldiers in a similar manner.

you do know that we staged a ground attack,inside pakistan,last fall? without their govt's knowledge or permissions beforehand? that 20 civilians were killed?
certainly not an attack like we experienced, but that's one hell of a way to treat our supposed allies. i'm sure we garnered good will from their populace by doing that. no doubt they're falling over themselves to give us more of a hand with our war on terror.

[dellinger63]

Originally Posted by Danzig

http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/...5lvbAD96E0T180


http://www.startribune.com/world/396...D3aPc:_Yyc:aUU

Thanks not sure how the Chicago papers missed it as the guy is from Lockport about 30 miles south. "Facing life in a military prison," you left that out. By accident?

[Danzig]

Originally Posted by dellinger63

Thanks not sure how the Chicago papers missed it as the guy is from Lockport about 30 miles south. "Facing life in a military prison," you left that out. By accident?

yeah, i also left out all the other details in my passing reference to the case-like others involved, where the trial was, where the shootings occurred, etc, etc.

[Antitrust32]

Originally Posted by Danzig

you do know that we staged a ground attack,inside pakistan,last fall? without their govt's knowledge or permissions beforehand? that 20 civilians were killed?
certainly not an attack like we experienced, but that's one hell of a way to treat our supposed allies. i'm sure we garnered good will from their populace by doing that. no doubt they're falling over themselves to give us more of a hand with our war on terror.

We are going after Al Queda members who live in Pakistan. Obama has been doing that ever since he was elected. It is where the fighting should have been in the first place. Afghanistan and Pakistan.

Pakistan has really done wonders for the war on terror considering most of Al Queda stays in the mountains of the Pakistan, and Pakistan just allowed the Taliban to govern an area of the country.

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by miraja2

So THIS is the evidence you have to support your assertion that torture has "worked pretty well for thousands of years."

Once again I ask you what methods are better? Maybe torture isnt the ideal way of obtaining information but i have yet to see anyone give an better example? And again if there are more effective methods why is torture still used so widely throughout the world?

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by hi_im_god

i agree.

which is why we should use effective methods.

name one

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by Danzig

i think so too...
by the same token, we can't torture prisoners and then take offense when they treat our men and women in a similar manner. that is not to say that we should put enemy combatants up in a hilton garden inn either.

It is naive to think that the treatment of our men and woman has anything to do with the treatment of their prisoners. Actually it is frighteningly naive.

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by hi_im_god

http://www.theatlantic.com/doc/200506/budiansky


"Since the prison scandals broke, many old hands in the business have pointed out that abusing prisoners is not simply illegal and immoral; it is also remarkably ineffective."

"The torture of suspects [at Abu Ghraib] did not lead to any useful intelligence information being extracted," says James Corum, a professor at the U.S. Army Command and General Staff College and the author of a forthcoming book on counterinsurgency warfare. "The abusers couldn't even use the old 'ends justify the means' argument, because in the end there was nothing to show but a tremendous propaganda defeat for the United States."

Corum, who recently retired as a lieutenant colonel after twenty-eight years in the Army and Reserves, mostly in military intelligence, says that Moran's philosophy has repeatedly been affirmed in subsequent wars large and small. "Know their language, know their culture, and treat the captured enemy as a human being" is how Corum sums up Moran's enduring lesson."

Though we dont know for sure i would guess that the "old hands" that aren't trying to sell books may not agree with Corum. I would like to know exactly what wars small and large he is referring to.

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by Danzig

i just want to be very clear here. i don't think we are 'just like them' or acting 'just like them'. and i want it to stay that way. i get that war is hell, i understand we must take care of ourselves first. but we don't need to cross a fine line, where we become almost like what we're fighting-and try to justify it by saying we're the ones wearing the white hats here.

I'm sure many will disagree but in a war you pick a side and do what you can to win. There is no high road when dealing with terrorists, there is no credit given to moral treatment of prisoners or civilians. You are dealing with savages with no morals, many trying to use violence against our troops as a way to gain respect and power in their little world. Trying to fight a "fair" way just leads to defeat in both reality and in the public opinion.

[ateamstupid]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

name one

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...112802242.html

Please read this. I'm begging you.

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by Danzig

you do know that we staged a ground attack,inside pakistan,last fall? without their govt's knowledge or permissions beforehand? that 20 civilians were killed?
certainly not an attack like we experienced, but that's one hell of a way to treat our supposed allies. i'm sure we garnered good will from their populace by doing that. no doubt they're falling over themselves to give us more of a hand with our war on terror.

And you know without a doubt that
1. The Paki govt did not know
2. that the civilians killed were killed by americans or even were civilians?
3. The population isnt going to be against us regardless of what we do?
4. The billions of aid we give them isnt enough?

[AeWingnut]

http://www.presidentreagan.info/writ...ing_weasel.cfm

[AeWingnut]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

I'm sure many will disagree but in a war you pick a side and do what you can to win. There is no high road when dealing with terrorists, there is no credit given to moral treatment of prisoners or civilians. You are dealing with savages with no morals, many trying to use violence against our troops as a way to gain respect and power in their little world. Trying to fight a "fair" way just leads to defeat in both reality and in the public opinion.

http://blogs.news.com.au/dailytelegr...h/hassan_chop/



“The fact that in Mohammedan law every woman must belong to some man as his absolute property - either as a child, a wife, or a concubine - must delay the final extinction of slavery until the faith of Islam has ceased to be a great power among men.” – Sir Winston Churchill

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by ateamstupid

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...112802242.html

Please read this. I'm begging you.

Joey it is another guy selling a book making claims that we have no idea are true or not. I would ask him if the prisoners hated Al Queda so much then it shouldnt have taken much torture to get info out of them should it?

I am not an interrogation expert and i am not saying that other methods shouldnt be used first. But outlawing it and making this such a public fight gives strength to the enemy which knows that they wont be subjected to torture. They can just hold out until we let them go.

[Danzig]

Originally Posted by Antitrust32

We are going after Al Queda members who live in Pakistan. Obama has been doing that ever since he was elected. It is where the fighting should have been in the first place. Afghanistan and Pakistan.

Pakistan has really done wonders for the war on terror considering most of Al Queda stays in the mountains of the Pakistan, and Pakistan just allowed the Taliban to govern an area of the country.

i know-i wrote my u.s. senator, and later this evening (just got home) i'm going to write the u.n.!

pakistan has been no help at all. all we can really hope to do (imo) is keep them out of here. if pakistan wants to live that way, more power to them. but they'll find they have made a deal with the devil, as the taliban will only pull similar action elsewhere, until the whole country is under islamic law.

[Danzig]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

It is naive to think that the treatment of our men and woman has anything to do with the treatment of their prisoners. Actually it is frighteningly naive.

not saying it's tit for tat; also don't believe that if we treat their prisoners well, that they will reply in kind. what i am saying is that we don't need to be breaking any of our own laws while fighting terrorism.