Week/Weekend Stakes Beyers: Pharoah 105; Honor Code 112

[GenuineRisk]

I dunno; that Beyer piece seems to be a textbook example of damning with faint praise.

[Indian Charlie]

Originally Posted by GenuineRisk

I dunno; that Beyer piece seems to be a textbook example of damning with faint praise.

That much is obvious.

[Kasept]

Originally Posted by Indian Charlie

That much is obvious.

What's obvious is that enjoying accomplishments for what they are while appreciating perspective which critical analysis offers has become impossible.

[Kasept]

Regardless of the quality of his individual performances, and regardless of what he does in the future, American Pharoah’s sweep of the three classics is an achievement more notable than those of the 11 horses who did it before him.

Beyer's praise is so faint that he single's out American Pharoah's Triple Crown as the more impressive than the 11 that came before.

[Indian Charlie]

Originally Posted by Kasept

Regardless of the quality of his individual performances, and regardless of what he does in the future, American Pharoah’s sweep of the three classics is an achievement more notable than those of the 11 horses who did it before him.

Beyer's praise is so faint that he single's out American Pharoah's Triple Crown as the more impressive than the 11 that came before.

Notable and impressive are two different things.

[freddymo]

Originally Posted by Indian Charlie

Notable and impressive are two different things.

Beyers take on ATR is the pace was slow AP had it his own way and the race was historically ordinary. He applauds the achievement but clearly thinks AP speed is ordinary for G1 horses. By doing this he suggests that all that his big Fig horses like Materialty and Frosted didnt fire, which is certainly plausible I guess.

CJ doesnt think the pace was slow and other figure makers seem to have a different take. All are plausible takes and Beyers take is certainly understandable and consistent with the math. IMO you have to weigh all the recaps with a grain of salt. I personally dont think the pace was slow and while Materiality maybe be finished his Derby was perceived very highly for his bad trip etc. and for you to just say he couldnt run reasonably fast for a 6f's 5 weeks after his OK derby is a bit of a reach for my palate. Again its racing and judging this stuff aint easy.

I think its fair to say Beyer doesnt think AP has ever run a really fast race to date.

[Indian Charlie]

Originally Posted by freddymo

Beyers take on ATR is the pace was slow AP had it his own way and the race was historically ordinary.

The pace was indeed pretty relaxed and easy for AP. It usually is in the Belmont. Ordinary though? No.

Originally Posted by freddymo

He applauds the achievement but clearly thinks AP speed is ordinary for G1 horses. By doing this he suggests that all that his big Fig horses like Materialty and Frosted didnt fire, which is certainly plausible I guess.

Yeah, I find that pretty convenient for him to explain away just how truly historically bad his Florida Derby opinion is. It's really an offense to common sense, and I normally don't give a crap about what people's opinions are (in the sense of getting bent out of shape).

Originally Posted by freddymo

I personally dont think the pace was slow and while Materiality maybe be finished his Derby was perceived very highly for his bad trip etc. and for you to just say he couldnt run reasonably fast for a 6f's 5 weeks after his OK derby is a bit of a reach for my palate.

I personally felt his Derby trip was entirely overblown, though I can see why people feel the way they do, and I might be wrong.

The rest of that paragraph, I am confused by. He was pretty close up to the lead for at least half of the race, so, he did, in my eyes, fire and ran a decent enough race until he quit. He had five weeks to prepare for that effort? How is it a reach to say he couldn't prepare in five weeks to run 3/4's in 113 and change? That's workout speed. Maybe I'm not understanding your point.

Originally Posted by freddymo

I think its fair to say Beyer doesnt think AP has ever run a really fast race to date.

That's part of my problem. To me, it seems like he is lacking objectivity, which is a must when working with numbers, like he does. He's run several very fast races, but because he THINKS AP hasn't, he adjusts his numbers downwards.

Again, maybe I'm missing something, but using the Brooklyn to downgrade the Belmont seems pretty far fetched in this instance.

[Indian Charlie]

Originally Posted by Kasept

What's obvious is that enjoying accomplishments for what they are while appreciating perspective which critical analysis offers has become impossible.

I agree.

[Antitrust32]

Originally Posted by GenuineRisk

I dunno; that Beyer piece seems to be a textbook example of damning with faint praise.

I agree.. its by far my least favorite of all post race articles I've read.

[Antitrust32]

btw.. great show yesterday Steve. Are you going to have a write up? I always love how you recap big events.

Saturday was spectacular. So happy for all that got to be there.. and everyone watching from home. The emotion was very very intense. American Pharoah is one hell of an animal. That was a very impressive Belmont. Only one I've personally seen like it is Point Given's race (I started following horse racing in 1996 for perspective). It was so neat to see that horse pull away and know that it was really happening. I kept rewinding the coverage to re-watch the race.

My problem with the Beyer article is yes, this horse is another Secretariat, Affirmed and Seattle Slew. Of course there is never another horse like Secretariat. But American Pharoah has accomplished what they accomplished by becoming a triple crown winner. Also this horse is very similar to Seattle Slew in my opinion. I just don't understand the jab. Unless he is talking about their entire racing careers, which would be foolish because you can only really compare what you've seen so far.

[RolloTomasi]

Originally Posted by Antitrust32

Also this horse is very similar to Seattle Slew in my opinion. I just don't understand the jab. Unless he is talking about their entire racing careers, which would be foolish because you can only really compare what you've seen so far.

Beyer later in the article cautions to reserve judgment on American Pharoah until his career is complete. Seeing how he is certain to retire at the end of the year, hopefully he doesn't continue to emulate Seattle Slew, who bombed in an tailored "appearance" race at Hollywood Park. (Secretariat also re-appeared post-TC in a "groomed" race--the Arlington Invitational). Seattle Slew seems to have had similar criticisms dogging his career, but at 4 he was afforded a huge opportunity to shut the naysayers down when he faced fellow Triple Crown winner Affirmed in the Marlboro Cup and delivered a knockout performance (not that beating a tired 3yo was unexpected). He followed it up with huge efforts in the important fall races at Belmont. Add in his near death experience during the previous winter and you have some nice elements to create a legend.

As for American Pharoah, a run at the Haskell-Travers double would be a feat no modern day TC ever accomplished. Affirmed won the Travers outright, but sawed off Alydar entering the far turn and was disqualified. As he won't be seen at 4, it will be nice to see the horse avoid appearance-fee races (although Monmouth tends to oblige) and focus on the prestige events this summer and fall.

Personally, I would love to see him attempt Easy Goer's late season campaign (i.e., Whitney, Travers, Woodward, JCGC), but I'm not sure if its even possible schedule-wise nowadays.

[Danzig]

Originally Posted by RolloTomasi

Beyer later in the article cautions to reserve judgment on American Pharoah until his career is complete. Seeing how he is certain to retire at the end of the year, hopefully he doesn't continue to emulate Seattle Slew, who bombed in an tailored "appearance" race at Hollywood Park. (Secretariat also re-appeared post-TC in a "groomed" race--the Arlington Invitational). Seattle Slew seems to have had similar criticisms dogging his career, but at 4 he was afforded a huge opportunity to shut the naysayers down when he faced fellow Triple Crown winner Affirmed in the Marlboro Cup and delivered a knockout performance (not that beating a tired 3yo was unexpected). He followed it up with huge efforts in the important fall races at Belmont. Add in his near death experience during the previous winter and you have some nice elements to create a legend.

As for American Pharoah, a run at the Haskell-Travers double would be a feat no modern day TC ever accomplished. Affirmed won the Travers outright, but sawed off Alydar entering the far turn and was disqualified. As he won't be seen at 4, it will be nice to see the horse avoid appearance-fee races (although Monmouth tends to oblige) and focus on the prestige events this summer and fall.

Personally, I would love to see him attempt Easy Goer's late season campaign (i.e., Whitney, Travers, Woodward, JCGC), but I'm not sure if its even possible schedule-wise nowadays.

it's too bad that slew's owners completely ignored billy turner regarding that cali race. he told them the horse was tired, to give him a break.
he was right.

[MLC]

Originally Posted by Danzig

it's too bad that slew's owners completely ignored billy turner regarding that cali race. he told them the horse was tired, to give him a break.
he was right.

And then they fired him, if my memory is correct.