Race Riding or Herding?

[MaTH716]

The Poker at Belmont yesterday (8th race).
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lvd_t055c6E

On the NYRA show on MSG, it seemed like the Mig was ok with the decision calling it race-riding. I think Andy was a little more in the herding corner. I'm biased because the result went against me, but I really don't understand how they left Lezcano up there. They also might have set a dangerous precedent going forward. To me it looked like the favorite (even with the horrendous ride, {because Rosario absolutely refuses to win for me}) could have been cost a placing by the tactics in the stretch. I've always thought that was the #1 criteria for taking a horse down.

I'm interested in hearing everyone's thoughts.

[declansharbor]

If Mig thinks that is race riding, I'd hate to see what he considers herding. Lezcano clearly comes in a few paths once he realizes his competition took the inside route. Luckily for everyone that Catapult didn't go on in the stretch or else Lezcano would've pushed Projected & Rosario right into him.

[knickslions2]

I had no skin in that race but thought the 3 should have come down. Clearly herded the favorite all the way down the stretch almost into the rail.

[blackthroatedwind]

I think you are misconstruing Mig's comments. What he said, essentially, was that he believed that the Stewards would not take the horse down, and explained why he felt that way. I basically agreed with him.

I believe a horse should be taken down for that, but the Stewards have allowed that kind of behavior, and a jockey's responsibility is to do what he or she is legally allowed to do in order to win a race. I am not at all surprised the result stood, and actually think it is consistent with the decisions our Stewards make. Whether you or I agree with them is a completely different conversation.

[knickslions2]

Originally Posted by blackthroatedwind

I think you are misconstruing Mig's comments. What he said, essentially, was that he believed that the Stewards would not take the horse down, and explained why he felt that way. I basically agreed with him.

I believe a horse should be taken down for that, but the Stewards have allowed that kind of behavior, and a jockey's responsibility is to do what he or she is legally allowed to do in order to win a race. I am not at all surprised the result stood, and actually think it is consistent with the decisions our Stewards make. Whether you or I agree with them is a completely different conversation.

I agree that consistent rulings are really all we can ask for and New York tracks seem to be best at that.

[MaTH716]

Originally Posted by blackthroatedwind

I think you are misconstruing Mig's comments. What he said, essentially, was that he believed that the Stewards would not take the horse down, and explained why he felt that way. I basically agreed with him.

I believe a horse should be taken down for that, but the Stewards have allowed that kind of behavior, and a jockey's responsibility is to do what he or she is legally allowed to do in order to win a race. I am not at all surprised the result stood, and actually think it is consistent with the decisions our Stewards make. Whether you or I agree with them is a completely different conversation.

Originally Posted by knickslions2

I agree that consistent rulings are really all we can ask for and New York tracks seem to be best at that.

At the end of the day, as bettors this is all we can ask and hope for. Going forward, I have a feeling that this race will be the measuring stick for any type of herding infraction/DQ because this one really had to toe the line.

[hoovesupsideyourhead]

I tend to think its rosario who is to blame for not making a winning move before that all happend.

[MaTH716]

Originally Posted by hoovesupsideyourhead

I tend to think its rosario who is to blame for not making a winning move before that all happend.

It's like he know's when I need him to win.

[ateamstupid]

Originally Posted by hoovesupsideyourhead

I tend to think its rosario who is to blame for not making a winning move before that all happend.

Yep. Whether it should've been a DQ or not, that was indeed a masterclass in race riding by Lezcano, not just for the stretch maneuvers, but also for making sure he beat Rosario to the two-path when going to reel in Catapult near the turn for home.

[RHT2004]

Dream ride from Lezcano IMO. Nothing wrong.

[ScottJ]

The Poker discussion was the second controversy during the day. The real action started in Race #6 as Johnny Velazquez on Kirby's Penny under a left handed whip came out some five or six paths to meet the challenge of You Love. However in the process, Kirby's Penny completely shut-off Dawn the Destroyer under Joel Rosario.

In the head-on, Rosario pulled out of the tight spot, cost his mount forward momentum, and likely avoided clipping heels as a result.

I am tired of reading about jockeys who come to the edge without crossing it. That line is now so blurred, there is only the memory of a line that shouldn't be crossed. Hong Kong makes it very clear - ride a straight line in the stretch. Not only does this take the "race riding" controversy off the table, but I am telling you for sure, it is going to save the life of one of the jockeys on the NYRA circuit. It is absolutely beyond me that NYRA has not stepped-in with the steward's decision making.

[blackthroatedwind]

Since this does seem to be continuously ignored, despite it having been said over and over and over and over and over and over, ad finitum, again...there are three Stewards, one of whom works for NYRA.

If only life were so easy as to blame NYRA for everything, whatever the nebulous NYRA even encompasses.....and before anyone gripes, I said all this LONG before going to work there.

I think this discussion is great, but blaming NYRA just detracts from the conversation.

[ScottJ]

Originally Posted by blackthroatedwind

Since this does seem to be continuously ignored, despite it having been said over and over and over and over and over and over, ad finitum, again...there are three Stewards, one of whom works for NYRA.

If only life were so easy as to blame NYRA for everything, whatever the nebulous NYRA even encompasses.....and before anyone gripes, I said all this LONG before going to work there.

I think this discussion is great, but blaming NYRA just detracts from the conversation.

Yes, there are three stewards and they are supposed to have independent oversight on these inquiries without interference. Agreed.

Yes, there is one and only one steward appointed through the auspices of NYRA. Agreed.

You have been verbal for players' rights in this herding environment. From that perspective, you are the only one listening.

If someone dies on the track (which is how this debate is going to end unless someone steps in), you can be sure that NYRA will be named as defendant and the whatever-defines-NYRA will be pretty well sorted. Unless NYRA can demonstrate that they specifically intervened with the entire set of stewards, it will be a very difficult position to defend as the racetrack operator. There has just been too much press on the issue to ignore the inherent rough riding risks which, to me, have gone beyond the risks inherent in the game.

Andy, we have written on Twitter many times before and I know you are not supporting the level of rough riding that we now see. You shoulder way too much "flack" for NYRA based on your very visible persona both on TV, the NYRA Network, and on your own time on boards like these. You seem to be the only one listening - or even commenting - on what is happening between the rails.

I am just happy that you are listening even if you are the only one left at NYRA who cares.

[pointman]

Originally Posted by ScottJ

Yes, there are three stewards and they are supposed to have independent oversight on these inquiries without interference. Agreed.

Yes, there is one and only one steward appointed through the auspices of NYRA. Agreed.

You have been verbal for players' rights in this herding environment. From that perspective, you are the only one listening.

If someone dies on the track (which is how this debate is going to end unless someone steps in), you can be sure that NYRA will be named as defendant and the whatever-defines-NYRA will be pretty well sorted. Unless NYRA can demonstrate that they specifically intervened with the entire set of stewards, it will be a very difficult position to defend as the racetrack operator. There has just been too much press on the issue to ignore the inherent rough riding risks which, to me, have gone beyond the risks inherent in the game.

Andy, we have written on Twitter many times before and I know you are not supporting the level of rough riding that we now see. You shoulder way too much "flack" for NYRA based on your very visible persona both on TV, the NYRA Network, and on your own time on boards like these. You seem to be the only one listening - or even commenting - on what is happening between the rails.

I am just happy that you are listening even if you are the only one left at NYRA who cares.

NYRA need not worry about being sued for a jockey incident. New York State Law is very clear that a jockey injured while riding a horse, whether in a race or excercising, regardless of just about any circumstance, cannot maintain suit for their injuries as riding horses is covered by the doctrine of assumption of risk which is a complete defense to any suit. It stems from the Ron Turcotte incident in the matter of Turcotte v. Fell and also does not allow suit against a jockey that negligently causes a fall.

[hoovesupsideyourhead]

Originally Posted by pointman

NYRA need not worry about being sued for a jockey incident. New York State Law is very clear that a jockey injured while riding a horse, whether in a race or excercising, regardless of just about any circumstance, cannot maintain suit for their injuries as riding horses is covered by the doctrine of assumption of risk which is a complete defense to any suit. It stems from the Ron Turcotte incident in the matter of Turcotte v. Fell and also does not allow suit against a jockey that negligently causes a fall.

[ScottJ]

Originally Posted by pointman

NYRA need not worry about being sued for a jockey incident. New York State Law is very clear that a jockey injured while riding a horse, whether in a race or excercising, regardless of just about any circumstance, cannot maintain suit for their injuries as riding horses is covered by the doctrine of assumption of risk which is a complete defense to any suit. It stems from the Ron Turcotte incident in the matter of Turcotte v. Fell and also does not allow suit against a jockey that negligently causes a fall.

Fair point although recent findings from a Queens Judge in 2013 questioned NYRA's ability to use the assumption of risk clause, but your point is very well taken.

My point here was not the lawsuit, but rather the injury down the stretch that will undoubtedly happen. How do you think that would play during opening week at Saratoga? Do you think they would clamp down on the herding at that point?

[pointman]

Originally Posted by ScottJ

Fair point although recent findings from a Queens Judge in 2013 questioned NYRA's ability to use the assumption of risk clause, but your point is very well taken.

My point here was not the lawsuit, but rather the injury down the stretch that will undoubtedly happen. How do you think that would play during opening week at Saratoga? Do you think they would clamp down on the herding at that point?

I understand that your main point is not a lawsuit, but in New York the enforcement is not going to come from the courts. I agree that herding is way too prevalent in New York and the stewards have let riders, particularly Castellano, get away with it for way too long. The enforcement has to come from the stewards or someone is going to get hurt badly.

[Flatterer]

The NYRA stewards remained consistent with a "no call" for Lady Eli in the Diana on Saturday.

I'm surprised the stewards took so long in their review.

I just hope Irad Ortiz doesn't cause an accident during the rest of the meet.

Unfortunately, blood will have to be spilled before the NYRA stewards take a different view of this riding technique.

[10 pnt move up]

Originally Posted by Flatterer

The NYRA stewards remained consistent with a "no call" for Lady Eli in the Diana on Saturday.

I'm surprised the stewards took so long in their review.

I just hope Irad Ortiz doesn't cause an accident during the rest of the meet.

Unfortunately, blood will have to be spilled before the NYRA stewards take a different view of this riding technique.

The best shot was the back pan view when you could see half the riders body to the left of the horse, a clear move to intimidate and push his horse over. But you are right, the laws are what is enforced, not necessarily what is written.

What he did is perfectly fine by the standards the stewards have set.

[Kitan]

No mention here of Mike Smith herding Elate into the infield? I get you want to be side by side to keep the horse competitive And I don't think it was a DQ but pretty darn dangerous.