Where does RTR belong in history?

[whodey17]

Where does RTR rank among other great fillies? Does she belong in the same sentence as Ruffian, Personal Ensign, Lady's Secret or Kincsem? Does she need to beat the boys again to stamp her place in history, or can she continue to beat up on the girls to prove her place in history? Imagine victories in the KY Oaks, Belmont, CC American Oaks and Breeders Cup Distaff - that is one heck of a resume. Even though her racing career is not over, I think she has to go down as one of the all time greats. Victories in the KY Oaks and Belmont Stakes gives a filly the distiction of one of the all time greats of her sex.

This would be my all time field (for females only) going 1 1/4 on dirt - max 10 horses.

Rags To Riches
Lady's Secret
Ruffian
Personal Ensign
Kincsem
Cicada
Genuine Risk
Winning Colors
Go For Wand
Meadow Star

[MisterB]

Alabama is a nice one before the BC

[Cajungator26]

Originally Posted by whodey17

Where does RTR rank among other great fillies? Does she belong in the same sentence as Ruffian, Personal Ensign, Lady's Secret or Kincsem? Does she need to beat the boys again to stamp her place in history, or can she continue to beat up on the girls to prove her place in history? Imagine victories in the KY Oaks, Belmont, CC American Oaks and Breeders Cup Distaff - that is one heck of a resume. Even though her racing career is not over, I think she has to go down as one of the all time greats. Victories in the KY Oaks and Belmont Stakes gives a filly the distiction of one of the all time greats of her sex.

This would be my all time field (for females only) going 1 1/4 on dirt - max 10 horses.

Rags To Riches
Lady's Secret
Ruffian
Personal Ensign
Kincsem
Cicada
Genuine Risk
Winning Colors
Go For Wand
Meadow Star

I personally think that most of those would have blown her out of the water, but that's just my opinion.

With that said, she's an extremely nice filly. Slow time or not, I was impressed with her in the Belmont. She's a very gritty filly... fought all the way down the stretch. I like that in a racehorse.

[dellinger63]

IMO Rags isn't yet near Kincsem and Ruffian even if she could go back and win that first race.

[Pedigree Ann]

It is way too soon to put Rags to Riches up in this stratosphere. There are so many great mares you have not included -Pretty Polly, Gallorette, Shuvee, Drumtop among them - who regularly beat up on males of several generations, not just their own. Not to mention Makybe Diva and Sunline just recently from Down Under.

Rags to Riches is the best 3yo filly we've seen since Go for Wand, maybe since Ruffian. I'll go as far as to say that.

By the way, if you include Genuine Risk, why not Bold 'n Determined, who beat GR on the square when they met in the Maskette H? BnD had won the CCA Oaks, Acorn, Santa Susana (aka SA Oaks), etc. and would go on to win the Spinster against her elders.

[miraja2]

She has raced SIX times and is in the middle of her 3yo campaign. It makes absolutely no sense to start trying to figure out where she ranks at this point.
She may never win another race for the rest of her career.
Or..............she may win 3 more G1s including the BC Distaff.
Or anything in between.
That might affect her all-time ranking just a bit wouldn't you think?
So where does she rank in history? ABSOLUTELY NOWHERE!!!!!!!!!!
She isn't done running yet.
Where does this thread rank in a list of all-time threads?
Right near the bottom.

[Antitrust32]

There are a lot of real good filly's that are not on that list. Open Mind, Regret, Shuvee even some of the 90's fillies were real nice

Banshee Breeze
Beautiful Pleasure
Silverbulletday
Serena's Song
Azeri
Hidden Lake
Inside Information
Paseana
Bayakoa
Princess Rooney

Rags to Riches is a real good one that belongs on those lists, but she still has a lot more running to do, and if she keeps dominating, she can go to the top of those lists.

[miraja2]

Originally Posted by Antitrust32

There are a lot of real good filly's that are not on that list. Open Mind, Regret, Shuvee even some of the 90's fillies were real nice

Banshee Breeze
Beautiful Pleasure
Silverbulletday
Serena's Song
Azeri
Hidden Lake
Inside Information
Paseana
Bayakoa
Princess Rooney

Rags to Riches is a real good one that belongs on those lists, but she still has a lot more running to do, and if she keeps dominating, she can go to the top of those lists.

Oh come on.....Inside Information? All she did was win six G1s, win 14 of her 17 lifetime starts, finish in the money in all 17 of her lifetime starts, and win the Distaff in one of the more impressive performances in the history of the Breeders' Cup.
How could we even begin to put her in the same league as a horse that defeated the mighty Curlin?

[Siena 16]

Ruffian by far was the fastest filly ever to race. And she ran when medication was not as much as a contributor to performance as it is in racing today

[slotdirt]

This is the leader in the clubhouse in prematurity for 2007 threads started.

You can't beat the past. This sport is doomed in that regard. It's like baseball.

[King Glorious]

I think Rags has the potential to be a really top one. But, in my opinion, this is one of the weakest 3yo filly groups I've seen and the colts are not that much better. Street Sense and Curlin have seperated themselves from the pack but what's making them stand out as extra special is because the crop is extremely mediocre. It's always been my opinion that in order for me to say a horse is truly great, he/she's got to do something really special. I don't mean just win the top races because every year, someone is going to win those races. For me, u've either got to beat some really good horses or u've got to run some amazing times/figures. To me, Street Sense has beaten one good horse (Curlin) and Curlin has beaten one good horse (Street Sense) and Rags has beaten one good horse (Curlin). Neither one ran an extremely fast time, ie a 115+ figure.

Getting back to Rags, I don't think she's in the class with some of the best of the past 20 years like Go for Wand, Bayakoa, Personal Ensign, Inside Information, Lady's Secret, Paseana, Azeri, Winning Colors, or Serena's Song.

[Antitrust32]

Originally Posted by King Glorious

I think Rags has the potential to be a really top one. But, in my opinion, this is one of the weakest 3yo filly groups I've seen and the colts are not that much better. Street Sense and Curlin have seperated themselves from the pack but what's making them stand out as extra special is because the crop is extremely mediocre. It's always been my opinion that in order for me to say a horse is truly great, he/she's got to do something really special. I don't mean just win the top races because every year, someone is going to win those races. For me, u've either got to beat some really good horses or u've got to run some amazing times/figures. To me, Street Sense has beaten one good horse (Curlin) and Curlin has beaten one good horse (Street Sense) and Rags has beaten one good horse (Curlin). Neither one ran an extremely fast time, ie a 115+ figure.

Getting back to Rags, I don't think she's in the class with some of the best of the past 20 years like Go for Wand, Bayakoa, Personal Ensign, Inside Information, Lady's Secret, Paseana, Azeri, Winning Colors, or Serena's Song.

I guess you forgot about Tampa and the Preakness, but that's ok, I'll let it slide.

[King Glorious]

Originally Posted by Antitrust32

I guess you forgot about Tampa and the Preakness, but that's ok, I'll let it slide.

No I didn't. Street Sense got a 102 in Tampa and Curlin got a 111 in the Preakness. That's why I used the 115+ as my barometer. Flat times are one thing but a speed figure helps determine how legit that final time was and how fast the track was. Those are decent numbers for 3yo's but nothing Earth shattering. The top 3yo's of the past few seasons like Bernardini, Discreet Cat, Smarty Jones, Point Given, Funny Cide, Afleet Alex, War Emblem.....they were routinely faster than these two.

[Downthestretch55]

Originally Posted by Cardus

She doesn't belong "in history" until her career is history.

Correct. Thanks for saying the truth.
She could be....but there's a long way ahead.
For sure she made fans, and I think T-bred racing needed this.
Just don't "fall in love". Sometimes they break your heart.

[somerfrost]

Originally Posted by Downthestretch55

Correct. Thanks for saying the truth.
She could be....but there's a long way ahead.
For sure she made fans, and I think T-bred racing needed this.
Just don't "fall in love". Sometimes they break your heart.

I agree, I love racing history and as a hobby, maintain a list of the horses I feel are the 100 "best ever"...it's highly subjective, one person's opinion as I rank horses as far back as Flying Childers and Eclipse and that leaves me open to the question of how on earth I can compare horses which ran a series of two mile heats with today's animals...my answer is a combination of research and a fair degree of "gut instinct"...as I said, highly subjective (but lots of fun). My point being, I NEVER consider a horse until they retire...simply isn't fair. Rags seems to have almost unlimited potential and the Belmont win secures her a place in history (I mean really...first filly to ever win a 12f Belmont) but Roman only assigned a PF of -47 to her, the slowest number he's ever given the Belmont winner (next would be Sarava at -55) and so questions about quality of competition will be raised. Still, she stumbled at the gate, raced wide and was facing colts for the first time so...who knows. If she retired today, I'd have a tough time ranking her above the likes of Inside Information and Winning Colors, certainly not with the likes of Personal Ensign or Lady's Secret.

[pba1817]

Originally Posted by King Glorious

No I didn't. Street Sense got a 102 in Tampa and Curlin got a 111 in the Preakness. That's why I used the 115+ as my barometer. Flat times are one thing but a speed figure helps determine how legit that final time was and how fast the track was. Those are decent numbers for 3yo's but nothing Earth shattering. The top 3yo's of the past few seasons like Bernardini, Discreet Cat, Smarty Jones, Point Given, Funny Cide, Afleet Alex, War Emblem.....they were routinely faster than these two.

This current group might be slower, but I remember everyone saying that heading into last years Derby too, and the hearing the same thing the year before that as well.

It all has to do with the lack of seasoning for these young horses. Horses develop over time and with experience, just like any athlete. Look at most of the great distance horses in history, they continued to develop at the end of their 3yo season and beyond. Today, horses are retired at 3.

Those faster times you want to see would come if these horses were running more frequently early in their career. Will you have more physical issues, yes, and that is where the problem lies. Owners are focusing solely on a few select races in a horses career that if they do win them, its like winning the lottery. It has made the owners scared to death to hurt a prospective stallion before he gets to the triple crown races. The opportunity for profit is so huge that it just not worth the risk to them to run their horses as frequently as they did in years past.

I think the only solution is to significantly increase purses in graded stakes races. Making it very difficult for owners to walk away from a huge purse, or a share of it. I think graded purses are too low when compared to top level other sports, and the industry has failed to show a fair increase over the years. The perfect example is the Arlington Million, which is still the Arlington Million 26 years later, what sense does that make? in todays market, it should be the Arlington $10 Million...

The stakes increase could funded by a number of areas, but mostly it should by the people who are going to reap the benefits, the owners and breeders. Putting a take out %, just like we have to pay at the mutual windows, on the live foal fees as well as the auction rings. For as much money is exchanged hands, the % would not have to be much. There are record numbers being spent each year, yet we are seeing less and less Graded quality horses... its only going to get worse until the industry realizes they are sacrificing quality racing for their own greed.

[miraja2]

Originally Posted by Cardus

She doesn't belong "in history" until her career is history.

I don't like the fact that I went on some big lengthy rant and then you come along and nicely sum up everything I was trying to say in one cleverly constructed sentence.

[Downthestretch55]

Originally Posted by somerfrost

I agree, I love racing history and as a hobby, maintain a list of the horses I feel are the 100 "best ever"...it's highly subjective, one person's opinion as I rank horses as far back as Flying Childers and Eclipse and that leaves me open to the question of how on earth I can compare horses which ran a series of two mile heats with today's animals...my answer is a combination of research and a fair degree of "gut instinct"...as I said, highly subjective (but lots of fun). My point being, I NEVER consider a horse until they retire...simply isn't fair. Rags seems to have almost unlimited potential and the Belmont win secures her a place in history (I mean really...first filly to ever win a 12f Belmont) but Roman only assigned a PF of -47 to her, the slowest number he's ever given the Belmont winner (next would be Sarava at -55) and so questions about quality of competition will be raised. Still, she stumbled at the gate, raced wide and was facing colts for the first time so...who knows. If she retired today, I'd have a tough time ranking her above the likes of Inside Information and Winning Colors, certainly not with the likes of Personal Ensign or Lady's Secret.

Somerfrost,
Your enthusiasm is quite evident.
Rags could be just what we need after the past couple of years. She has accomplished something very grand, but she's not there yet.
Now, since you're into the history of it, I'll just mention a couple that you might remember.
1) #2 in the 5th on June 5, 2004 (The White Carnation). Her name- Board Elligible.
Sire: Goldminer's Gold, dam Double Boarded by Cormorant.
Trained by James W. Ferraro
Jockey- Javier Castellano
I mention her because seeing her win caused me to decide to buy her half brother, Makeitright.
2) Bourbon Slush (1980). For sure Pedigree Anne will look her up. You'll see names like Crozier, Swaps, Hasty Road, and My Babu. She's the dam of one of my mares, Bourbon Streettune, the mom of Shot o' Bourbon (2yo) and Ciel
Bonne (yearling).

Somer, as I said before, the good that comes from a nice filly winning a big one invigorates our sport, drives our passions, and realizes our dreams.
Race on!!!!! Stumbles and all.

DTS

Originally Posted by Cajungator26

I personally think that most of those would have blown her out of the water, but that's just my opinion.

With that said, she's an extremely nice filly. Slow time or not, I was impressed with her in the Belmont. She's a very gritty filly... fought all the way down the stretch. I like that in a racehorse.

exactly!

i'm biased but i think ashado should be mentioned in this thread as well.