Barbaro (the Champ)

[kentuckyrosesinmay]

Originally Posted by TitanSooner

Why would you say Lava Man is a fluke? Oh wait, that's right, he's from California...

I'm with you on that one.

Originally Posted by TitanSooner

Why would you say Lava Man is a fluke? Oh wait, that's right, he's from California...

Well I was going to answer but it looks like you already have settled on an answer that suits you. Nice going, homer.

[Cajungator26]

Originally Posted by kentuckyrosesinmay

Maybe not well or maybe in a disaster...but all horses who show unless they are strictly walk/trot horses should be able to walk, trot, canter, stop, and circle. Otherwise...what would they show in?

There is more to a training level test than walk, trot, canter, stop and circle.

The purpose of the Training Level Dressage Tests is to confirm that the horse's muscles are supple and loose, and that it moves freely forward in a clear and steady rhythm, accepting contact with the bit. The horse is also asked to stretch down at the trot, and make changes of bend at the trot rather than going through the walk. As you are working through training level and moving towards first level, the horse should be moving and reaching forward towards the bridle. The horse should accept the rider and the riders use of seat and leg. Kind, consistent and correct riding will show with the horses acceptance and obedience to the aids.

I'm no dressage expert, but there is definitely more to a training level test than what you said. It's not easy teaching a horse how to do those things in the correct manner.

[Scurlogue Champ]

Originally Posted by dr.fager

we know as well as literary awards, riding titles, expert on police brutality....

get a sense of humor

Nice one, Dr.Fager.

[LARHAGE]

Originally Posted by Cajungator26

To me, Bernardini looks like a high strung maniac, but that's just me. (Bluegrass Cat does too.) I appreciate the classic thoroughbred appearance and wide set eyes of Barbaro much more so if we're going to be talking about looks. You really can't even compare the two. Barbaro looks the part of a champion IMO.

Well that is where personal opinions come in, to me Bernardini is absolutely the most beautiful horse I have seen in years, his build and his motion are awesome. I actually think a lot of TB's tend to be a little rangy and long headed ( hey, I'm an Arabian breeder) but every now and then you see a TB like Bernardini that has the beautifully shaped chiselled head, keen ears, set close together and a powerfully arched neck, just a beautiful horse. I absolutely love Barbaro as well, but if judging them in a halter class, it would be Bernardini, hands down.

[LARHAGE]

Originally Posted by Cajungator26

If this doesn't appear bugged out high strung to you, then I don't know what.

I don't call that high strung at all, he was walking very calm, he was looking at something. Bluegrass Cat and Ministers Bid are the poster childs for high-strung and buggy eyed. I thought Bernardini showed the calm confidence of the champ he is.

[Cajungator26]

Originally Posted by LARHAGE

Well that is where personal opinions come in, to me Bernardini is absolutely the most beautiful horse I have seen in years, his build and his motion are awesome. I actually think a lot of TB's tend to be a little rangy and long headed ( hey, I'm an Arabian breeder) but every now and then you see a TB like Bernardini that has the beautifully shaped chiselled head, keen ears, set close together and a powerfully arched neck, just a beautiful horse. I absolutely love Barbaro as well, but if judging them in a halter class, it would be Bernardini, hands down.

If you're an arab breeder, then I definitely understand why you find him more correct than Barbaro. He's got an arab-like head for sure.

[LARHAGE]

Originally Posted by dr.fager

you forgot self-proclaimed, I'd take my girl Cajun anytime.

I won a judging seminar in a class of over 30 participants in a contest where we had to place 5 horses in order and give reasons, than the judge had to evaluate our responses, I was the youngest competing with some old world Arabian breeders, I was actually floored when I won, as I have a very disticnt like/dislike criteria, SO THERE!!!!!

[Scurlogue Champ]

Originally Posted by Cajungator26

If you're an arab breeder, then I definitely understand why you find him more correct than Barbaro. He's got an arab-like head for sure.

Yeah, me too

[TitanSooner]

Originally Posted by Pillow Pants

Well I was going to answer but it looks like you already have settled on an answer that suits you. Nice going, homer.

I actually haven't settled on the fact that he's a fluke.. I hope he runs big in Kentucky.. If he doesn't, I still won't knock what he's accomplished this year. Has he run against stellar fields? probably not, but the same statement many have made for Bernardini can apply to Lava Man.. that he only runs in the best races and it's not his fault who, or who doesn't, enter against him.. Is he as good as Bernardini? I'm realistic.. I'm just tired of the "Once he ships out of CA into real racing, he gets his head handed to him." Can he ship? hasn't proven it yet but I hope he does. I do think he's a different animal than last year, and to call him a fluke after what he's done this year in the best races carded on the circuit and on different surfaces is just plain silly.

sincerely yours,
Homer

[Cajungator26]

Originally Posted by moodwalker

Yeah, me too

LOL Mood...

I'm not even going to comment, but if Bernardini had a towel on his head... never mind.

[LARHAGE]

Originally Posted by kentuckyrosesinmay

If you want me to go into a long analysis on Barbaro's and Bernardini's strengths and weaknesses in their conformation I will because I have the knowledge to do so, and learned from one of the best in the nation. Carole Moore is a legend in that department. Get ready to pull out a horse judging manual or a veterinary encyclopedia. In fact, I could actually tear both Bernardini and Barbaro apart in that department. They aren't perfectly conformed from a horse show world judging standpoint, but from a horse racing standpoint, they are certainly built to run. Form follows function. Secretariat is definitely not the best physical specimen there is, but he was perfect for racing. Buckpasser is one that comes to mind, but I would have to really look into the Thoroughbred breed to see what I could find. Also, I have found the perfectly conformed horse for another breed...one that stands out about all the rest. One that the horse show world agrees is actually the best. A unanimous champion. His name is Magnum Pysche, and for an Arabian, he is as close to perfect as you get. I cannot find a single fault in him. He has a perfectly flat croup, a perfect shoulder, perfect angles, a perfect head, a perfect back, perfect cannon bones, perfect forearm muscle...perfect everything and the world agrees.

Watch the entire video. He is a legend.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KkPV-k9Mvbk

Secretariat was not perfectly built but he was certainly very, very good. I find that most of the horse racing conformation analysis experts in the horse racing world aren't really experts in overall conformation analysis to the rest of us. I have actually been quite baffled by some of the "good" conformation horses racing analysis experts have put up because, in truth, the horses had horrible conformation. See, in the horse show world, we actually have hundreds of classes that actually judge conformation. This is what I am good at. They are called halter or model classes.

OH BY THE WAY HERE ARE SOME OF MY CREDENTIALS. GO DOWN TO THE JUDGING PHASE AND YOU WILL SEE ME RIGHT THERE "SECOND TOP YOUTH IN THE NATION" IN 2003. JESSICA HARRAWAY.

http://www.4hroundup.com/results/arc...-hippology.htm

HERE IS THE QUARTER HORSE CONGRESS WEBSITE IN WHICH I WAS OVERALL INDIVIDUAL CHAMPION, YET ANOTHER NATIONAL COMPETITION. EASTERN NATIONALS IS THE ONE THAT COUNTS FOR TOP HONORS THOUGH. I HAVEN'T POSTED THESE PICTURES BECAUSE I WAS HAVING A REALLY BAD HAIR DAY, LOOK HORRIBLE, AND WAS EXHAUSTED. PLUS, YOU ALL WOULD ONLY SAY THAT I WAS ONLY BRAGGING. I'M JUST DEFENDING MY CREDIBILITY. SCROLL DOWN THE PAGE AND YOU WILL SEE MY NAME AT THE TOP OF ALMOST EVERY LIST UNDER THE HIPPOLOGY SECTION.

http://www.oqha.com/CONGRESS/hip03.html

Oh yeah, and I judge all breeds! Prudgery you are right in that pictures are can be very misleading, but video is less so. I learned a lot of what I do know from watching videos.

I agree re: Magnum Psyche, saw him win Nationals, I have a Padrons Psyche son and am breeding to a black Magnum Psyche son this spring, an absolutely breathtaking horse is Magnum Psyche, I also saw him as a yearling and he was as beautiful than an he is now! I agree also about judging show horses and race horses, it's actually harder in that show horses are being bred to be conformationally perfect, racehorses are bred for speed, anyone who has done rescue or has ex-racers can attest to how bad their conformation sometimes is, the judging there is completely different. I acually thought Seattle Slew was pretty unattractive, and Pleasnat Colony was downright hideous!

[LARHAGE]

Originally Posted by prudery

Actually, all riding is dressage in theory . With Tbreds, the downhill look is definately not dressage material, but there are plenty of uphill guys . The big issue with the Tbred is whether they have a strong back, loins and the patience required . I watched the Magnum Arab guy video . Lovely elastic horse, but in halter classes don't they have to stand square ??? He doesn't behind .

Arabs don't stand square, they have a leg back to accentuate their topline.

[kentuckyrosesinmay]

Originally Posted by Cajungator26

There is more to a training level test than walk, trot, canter, stop and circle.

The purpose of the Training Level Dressage Tests is to confirm that the horse's muscles are supple and loose, and that it moves freely forward in a clear and steady rhythm, accepting contact with the bit. The horse is also asked to stretch down at the trot, and make changes of bend at the trot rather than going through the walk. As you are working through training level and moving towards first level, the horse should be moving and reaching forward towards the bridle. The horse should accept the rider and the riders use of seat and leg. Kind, consistent and correct riding will show with the horses acceptance and obedience to the aids.

I'm no dressage expert, but there is definitely more to a training level test than what you said. It's not easy teaching a horse how to do those things in the correct manner.

I know...I've won several training level classes and I had to work my butt off for those wins. I meant that all hunters should be able to perform the walk, trot, canter, circle, and halt so that essentially, they can do a training level dressage test. It doesn't mean that they have to do it well...just that they can do them. I've had horses gallop, buck, and rear in tests before, yet I still performed the test.

Of course there are working trot, working trot sitting, halt, working canter, changing rein, working trot rising, medium walk, free walk, gradually letting the horse take the reins at the trot while circling, working canter, changing rein, transitions, 20 meter circles at the trot and canter, bending, acceptance of the bit, impulsion, submission, lightness, freedom, regularity,stopping squarely at the halt...etc. etc.

Originally Posted by TitanSooner

I actually haven't settled on the fact that he's a fluke.. I hope he runs big in Kentucky.. If he doesn't, I still won't knock what he's accomplished this year. Has he run against stellar fields? probably not, but the same statement many have made for Bernardini can apply to Lava Man.. that he only runs in the best races and it's not his fault who, or who doesn't, enter against him.. Is he as good as Bernardini? I'm realistic.. I'm just tired of the "Once he ships out of CA into real racing, he gets his head handed to him." Can he ship? hasn't proven it yet but I hope he does. I do think he's a different animal than last year, and to call him a fluke after what he's done this year in the best races carded on the circuit and on different surfaces is just plain silly.

sincerely yours,
Homer

The difference in Lava Man and the Midwest and East Coast contingent is at least the majority of the top horses this side of the country have traveled outside of their area and faced different competition.

Not giving Lava Man a prep at Belmont or Keeneland is going to backfire. Running him in the Hirsch is avoiding all challengers that matter. The horse might not be a fluke, but his connections sure are acting like he is.

I want the horse to compete with the best. What's left in California?

[prudery]

Originally Posted by LARHAGE

Arabs don't stand square, they have a leg back to accentuate their topline.

Interesting. But I must say that that horse was soo lovely it wouldn't matter if he stood square, round or on MY head .

[somerfrost]

Originally Posted by Pillow Pants

The difference in Lava Man and the Midwest and East Coast contingent is at least the majority of the top horses this side of the country have traveled outside of their area and faced different competition.

Not giving Lava Man a prep at Belmont or Keeneland is going to backfire. Running him in the Hirsch is avoiding all challengers that matter. The horse might not be a fluke, but his connections sure are acting like he is.

I want the horse to compete with the best. What's left in California?

Putting him in a turf race makes perfect sense...the oldest angle in the sport (that actually works) is turf to dirt! This will set him up perfectly for the BCC, winning a dirt race against any competition as a prep would be meaningless...the BCC win has to be the objective if they want HOY!

[Gander]

Who exactly is left on the East Coast besides Bernardini and possibly Invasor for Lava Man to change his plans and run a prep against? You guys act like the East coast contains 4-5 older horses that Lava Man should have to worry about.

[LARHAGE]

Originally Posted by prudery

Interesting. But I must say that that horse was soo lovely it wouldn't matter if he stood square, round or on MY head .

Yes, he certainly is, thats the thing with Arabians, they can be so unbelievably beautiful, they are often called living art.

[TitanSooner]

Originally Posted by Pillow Pants

The difference in Lava Man and the Midwest and East Coast contingent is at least the majority of the top horses this side of the country have traveled outside of their area and faced different competition.

Not giving Lava Man a prep at Belmont or Keeneland is going to backfire. Running him in the Hirsch is avoiding all challengers that matter. The horse might not be a fluke, but his connections sure are acting like he is.

I want the horse to compete with the best. What's left in California?

Excellent response.. however, shipping outside of a horse's "area" in the east coast is much easier than shipping from California. The closest "Major" track to us is.. Kentucky. We're an island out here as far as that is concerned. The Hirsch wouldn't be my choice for a prep either, but I'm not a trainer and don't get paid to make those decisions.. Will it backfire? Maybe.. I hope not as I want to see him run his best race against that monster so there are no excuses for anyone. Can't wait to see that race.. just hope everyone stays healthy for it.