Cash for Clunkers Success

[Danzig]

it's all well and good to close the gap on the uninsured. but who is going to pay for this plan if it passes? obama says he won't raise taxes and will cover everyone-i guess he'll do some hollywood type accounting, and then we'll get hit with a massive bill a few years down the road. but he'll be out of office by then, it won't be his problem. he can go on the lecture circuit and make $$ talking about how he passed universal health care. the fact that it's only adding to a tremendously huge defecit won't matter-to him.

[Danzig]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/ar...uth-hurts.html

A Brits view on what we are looking at. Particularly telling was the part talkinf about 51% of British men were alive 5 years after being diagnosed with prostate cancer while 91% of American men were alive whne diagnosed with the same condition.

and i read this little gem in an article linked on the side of the one you posted:


Britain is forecast to run up the worst budget deficit in the developed world next year.


and their system works according to those who use it as a reference point....yeah, ok. between talk of dirty, understaffed hospitals, and an incredible deficit-is this really what we want?

[geeker2]

Attachment 1347


Cannon & Danzig you are "un-American"

[dellinger63]

Originally Posted by Danzig

i went to factcheck, and here's more on the issue-i may have put this up already, i don't recall:


http://www.factcheck.org/2009/07/oba...ws-conference/

excerpt~

Summary

President Obama tried to sell his health care overhaul in prime time, mangling some facts in the process. He also strained to make the job sound easier to pay for than experts predict.

■Obama promised once again that a health care overhaul “will be paid for.” But congressional budget experts say the bills they’ve seen so far would add hundreds of billions of dollars to the deficit over the next decade.
■He said the plan "that I put forward" would cover at least 97 percent of all Americans. Actually, the plan he campaigned on would cover far less than that, and only one of the bills now being considered in Congress would do that.
■He said the "average American family is paying thousands" as part of their premiums to cover uncompensated care for the uninsured, implying that expanded coverage will slash insurance costs. But the nonpartisan Kaiser Family Foundation puts the cost per family figure at $200.
■Obama claimed his budget "reduced federal spending over the next 10 years by $2.2 trillion" compared with where it was headed before. Not true. Even figures from his own budget experts don’t support that. The Congressional Budget Office projects a $2.7 trillion increase, not a $2.2 trillion cut.
■The president said that the United States spends $6,000 more on average than other countries on health care. Actually, U.S. per capita spending is about $2,500 more than the next highest-spending country. Obama’s figure was a White House-calculated per-family estimate.

Just drink the cool aid.

From the other side, I think many who have health insurance treat it like they would a smorgasbord restaurant as in they paid to get in so will eat 2 dinners, salad, pie, desert, juice, pop and desert again and insured patients including Medicaid patients get test after test seeing specialist after specialist when if they had to pay at least a part of each procedure they may opt to wait or even not have. In Obama speak a deductable as you go if you will.

[dellinger63]

Originally Posted by geeker2

Attachment 1347


Cannon & Danzig you are "un-American"

my lord what was done to her?

[Riot]

Originally Posted by Danzig

i think everyone recognizes that our health care needs a serious revamping. but i'd rather they take a long look and come up with a decent plan, not just run through something for the sake of having done something. .

It sure doesn't seem to me they are just doing something or the sake of it. They have come up with a decent plan. Three of them, in fact, which vary. A decent plans with many components. They've been "looking at it" for the past 20 years.

The details are out there, especially this week when the President held three live Town Halls and went over all the details of the various plans, repeatedly.

I just hope, when it comes out of the final compromise committee, the Senate doesn't screw it up so badly it's useless. They will compromise, and it will be in effect in 2013.

[Riot]

[quote=Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by GBBob

It is a stretch to link the war and healthcare. The problem with Obamas program is that even though we all admit our current system is flawed, his program will be much worse. The fact remains that #1 this is not the right time to try to do something like this (unless you admit politically that this is the only time that it has a prayer of getting through, which it doesnt) and #2 it is a really bad plan with a lot of unanswered questions. The fact that there is discord should be the signal to come to the table with the opposition party and attempt to put something together in a bi-partisan manner (you know how he said he was going to operate?). However he continues to campaign in staged sessions that no doubt will lead to further divides. This program is not only going to be a drain on the economy, it will lower healthcare standards and care in our country overall, put the govt in places it shouldnt be and further injure small business with its ridiclous taxes. The fact is that this program should be despised by the very people Obama loves to claim he support, the "middle class". They are the ones that will suffer as the rich will still pay privately for their own care after the insurance companies are all gone but the suckers in the middle will have to turn to this govt run future disaster. The poor will still be poor but they sure will be able to visit the doctor when their back is sore from sleeping on the street.

Or:

The current program is flawed, and Obama's plan (actually "he" doesn't have a plan, the House and the Senate are making up the plans, which is the source of much of the problem) - will make everything much better.

The House plans and Senate plan will be merged in Committee. That's "bipartisanship".

You'll notice that Obama wanted bipartisanship in working out the plans from the start, and the GOP pretty much came up with "don't do anything!" and "death panels". Thanks, guys, great input!

There has been inaction on health care for decades - now is the time to finally get something done.

The program not only will not be a drain on our economy, it will raise healthcare standards and care in our country overall. Small business will benefit with a reduction of monies they must spend on healthcare, or enable them to provide healthcare if they do not now.

The middle class will have ever greater options, and greater coverage, at lower cost.

[Riot]

Originally Posted by GBBob

You throw that word around and you don't even know what it really means

I've spent months trying to figure out how someone could be a communist, a Nazi, a liberal, and a socialist at the same time.

[Riot]

Originally Posted by dellinger63

I may be wrong but believe there is a political party in England who proudly call themselves the Socialist Party.

So what? That doesn't make either England or Great Britian Socialist.

There's a Socialist Party in the US, too.

[dellinger63]

Originally Posted by Riot

It sure doesn't seem to me they are just doing something or the sake of it. They have come up with a decent plan. Three of them, in fact, which vary. A decent plans with many components. They've been "looking at it" for the past 20 years.
The details are out there, especially this week when the President held three live Town Halls and went over all the details of the various plans, repeatedly.

.

Then they sent the wrong speaker or gave him the wrong facts but when he said his budget would reduce Federal spending by $2.2 TRILLION and the Congressional Budget Office says oh no and project a $2.7 TRILLION increase I'm done listening. Hopefully AARP joined me.

[Riot]

[quote=Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by GBBob

Au contraire. The goal isnt to improve healthcare, it is to control healthcare. A big difference.

Yeah - death panels!

[Riot]

[quote=Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by GBBob

And the truth is that the health care plan currently suggested will cause a whole lot more pain and suffering to undeserving Americans than the war has. The downside to the healthcare plan is a massive intrusion into the lives of private citizens by the govt.

How will it be a "massive intrusion" when the average "private citizen" will have zero contact with any healthcare reform - other than increased consumer protections - unless they want to?

[dellinger63]

Originally Posted by Riot

So what? That doesn't make either England or Great Britian Socialist.

There's a Socialist Party in the US, too.

When a country imposes a tax that is more than half of what was earned that worker IMO works for the Country or common good . That money taken from the worker is distributed among others to make them more equal including healthcare. It's not a perfect socialist society thankfully but certainly has socialists’ tendencies.

Don't be afraid just say 'Hello My Name is Riot' and let it go.....

[Riot]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1000...072865070.html
A whole buch of Liberals are now boycotting Whole foods because this guy had the audacity to give his opinion which includes several great points and shows how he is doing a good job of taking care of his own employees health care. Just in case you thought that the left actually cared about the well being of people and not this twisted version of nirvanna that they are seeking. Of course when the other side doesnt agree with something they are labeled "unamerican". Maybe that strict fundementlist GOP member Riot can enlighten us as to why people would feel the need to boycott a place that does a great job of providing healthcare for its employees? If you arent a trial lawyer, member of Acorn or an insurance company exec why would his plan sound bad?

No, sorry. I personally wouldn't boycott Whole Foods, because Mackey the far right-right-right Libertarian isn't the owner. It's a publically-owned company, I thought.

But if other consumers want to boycott due to the CEO's political opinions, that's certainly their choice.

People act on their conscience. Glenn Beck calls Obama a racist on TV, and Progessive Insurance, Geico, Proctor and Gamble, Lawyers.com pulled their advertisements from association with his show. Followed shortly by Healthy Choice, Radio Shack, Roche and Sanofi-Aventis.

[Riot]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

Whats going on now is so trumped up by the left and media that it is laughable. MSNBC would have rooted for the British in the Revolutionary war. Oh those scary town hall meetings....its laughable.

Nonsense. There have always been crazy fringes on the far right and the far left, and the far right whackos are having their moment in the sun now. These people are not imaginary, they are most obviously right there - like the Libertarian that carried the gun strapped to his leg to outside the Obama town hall meetin in NH.

They are not the majority, obviously, but they are not imaginary. You need to go watch some videos of the town hall meetings even GOP congressional members and blue dogs have been suffering through, as far as disruptions.

[Riot]

Originally Posted by Danzig

and i read this little gem in an article linked on the side of the one you posted:


Britain is forecast to run up the worst budget deficit in the developed world next year.


and their system works according to those who use it as a reference point....yeah, ok. between talk of dirty, understaffed hospitals, and an incredible deficit-is this really what we want?

What does that have to do with what is being proposed in either the House or Senate health care reform bills? Nothing.

[Riot]

Originally Posted by Danzig

it's all well and good to close the gap on the uninsured. but who is going to pay for this plan if it passes? .

2/3 from Medicare-Medicad inefficiency cutting, 1/3 from lowering
tax deductions on those that make over $250K per year from 36% to 28% (making that bracket deduction limits like the vast majority of other Americans)

[Riot]

Originally Posted by dellinger63

From the other side, I think many who have health insurance treat it like they would a smorgasbord restaurant as in they paid to get in so will eat 2 dinners, salad, pie, desert, juice, pop and desert again and insured patients including Medicaid patients get test after test seeing specialist after specialist when if they had to pay at least a part of each procedure they may opt to wait or even not have. In Obama speak a deductable as you go if you will.

Right now, if you have insurance through any of the major carriers, THEY (the insurance companies) declares what tests they will cover for what medical conditions.

If you have health insurance now, you sure don't have a "smorgasbord" of choices that you and your doctor make for testing, treatment - you take what you are given by the insurance company, if you want your insurance company to pay for it.

Here's why we need insurance reform with consumer protections: your insurance company can drop you any time they want, for anything they want. Read your contracts. Welcome to reality.

It happened to me last year, after my insurance company pre-approved paying for hospitalization and an orthopedic procedure.

Five months later (it took them that long to delay paying the hospital and doctor, and to find something remote 25 years back in my medical history - which I had declared upfront when I got the policy -to cancel my policy upon) they retroactively cancelled my policy.

Well, I had a choice: they would not pay for the operation as they said they would, and as they signed off they would to the hospital and doctor (and I had to sign a waiver releasing them from their promise to pay) - and the second choice, the blackmail for not agreeing they wouldn't have to pay was complete retroactive cancellation of my policy from the date of inception years ago, and I would also have to pay them back for everything they had every paid out on me.

The above is legal and happens all the time. I currently have a lawyer discussing it with them. The Kentucky Insurance Commission cannot do anything to protect the consumer, as there is no law for this.

That is another thing "health care reform" will do - provide consumer protections from the above.

I'm furious at Bush for never doing anything about this (after Clinton couldn't get it done) - Bush said he would do something during his first campaign.

Now is the time. It needs to be done.

[Riot]

Originally Posted by dellinger63

Then they sent the wrong speaker or gave him the wrong facts but when he said his budget would reduce Federal spending by $2.2 TRILLION and the Congressional Budget Office says oh no and project a $2.7 TRILLION increase I'm done listening. Hopefully AARP joined me.

You might re-read what AARP has said subsequently about healthcare reform plans, after that first Town Hall, and first "we didn't say that". They say they completely support healthcare reform now.

The CBO also agrees that healthcare reform (the plans in the works now) will cost a trillion over 10 years, which is what Obama has been saying.

[Riot]

When a country imposes a tax that is more than half of what was earned that worker IMO works for the Country or common good .
That money taken from the worker is distributed among others to make them more equal including healthcare.

You mean exactly like the current US socialist programs: Medicare, Medicad, and Veterans benefits?