Not enough or too much?

[my miss storm cat]

I'm wondering how you all feel about this kind of thing...

Do they deserve this?

Should the fine be greater? Smaller?

Thoughts?


Jockeys Corey Nakatani ($500) and Victor Espinoza ($300) were given fines last weekend for causing welts or breaks in the skin with the whip on mounts at Hollywood Park in November.

http://www.drf.com/news/j-ps-gusto-c...year-old-debut

[Patrick333]

I think you have to look who did it. If it is someone who has a history of horse abuse you sit them for a few days.

How often do you think this happens? I've watched a lot of horses after a race I can never remember seeing any welts. Maybe I just wasn't looking.

[randallscott35]

Just right.

[Port Conway Lane]

I think it's absurd to fine them. WTF can anyone expect if the industry allows equipment that can potentially cause a welt. Get rid of the whips or equip the horse with something protective.

[freddymo]

Originally Posted by my miss storm cat

I'm wondering how you all feel about this kind of thing...

Do they deserve this?

Should the fine be greater? Smaller?

Thoughts?


Jockeys Corey Nakatani ($500) and Victor Espinoza ($300) were given fines last weekend for causing welts or breaks in the skin with the whip on mounts at Hollywood Park in November.

http://www.drf.com/news/j-ps-gusto-c...year-old-debut

I thought the new whips couldnt do this?

[Princess Doreen]

It's not the whip - it's the misuse of it. There are jockeys who use the whip as punishment rather than control and encouragement. Little is done to discourage them.

Some good information here -

http://answers.yahoo.com/question/in...1130450AAVFtpm

[megahertz]

greater
there is no reason to hit an animal hard enough to do damage
you can't whip speed into a horse you can't whip stamina into a horse and you can't heart into a horse

[Riot]

Deserved.

[Dunbar]

Originally Posted by freddymo

I thought the new whips couldnt do this?

Me, too. I was led to believe that the new whips were little more than feathers.

--Dunbar

[Riot]

Originally Posted by Dunbar

Me, too. I was led to believe that the new whips were little more than feathers.

--Dunbar

They are. Shows why these guys were fined. Takes excess and misuse to do damage.

[3kings]

My question is do all horses bruise the same. Some people bruise much easier than others, is this also true for horses?

PS I'm not sticking up for the action of the jockeys and realize that breaking the skin of horse requires a serious strike with the whip. I was just curious.

[Riot]

Originally Posted by 3kings

My question is do all horses bruise the same. Some people bruise much easier than others, is this also true for horses?

PS I'm not sticking up for the action of the jockeys and realize that breaking the skin of horse requires a serious strike with the whip. I was just curious.

Some horses have physically thinner or finer skin (young fillies vs older intact males) Horses have a thin muscle right under their skin which gives them the ability to independently twitch a little bit as under a fly. Their skin is extraordinarily sensitive to pinpoint touch and pressure.

Whips are more mental than physical. Ever see jocks "showing the whip" to the horse alongside it's head so the horse merely sees it and responds?

Whips cause motion inducement via touch, noise, learned response to it. Not pain. A horse can be struck with rather significant-appearing force but it shouldn't be much different than an open-handed palm slap encouragement where the sound, touch and the learned reaction on the part of the horse are the inducement forward. Not sharp pain let alone leaving bruising.

[3kings]

Originally Posted by Riot

Some horses have physically thinner or finer skin (young fillies vs older intact males) Horses have a thin muscle right under their skin which gives them the ability to independently twitch a little bit as under a fly. Their skin is extraordinarily sensitive to pinpoint touch and pressure.

Whips are more mental than physical. Ever see jocks "showing the whip" to the horse alongside it's head so the horse merely sees it and responds?

Whips cause motion inducement via touch, noise, learned response to it. Not pain. A horse can be struck with rather significant-appearing force but it shouldn't be much different than an open-handed palm slap encouragement where the sound, touch and the learned reaction on the part of the horse are the inducement forward. Not sharp pain let alone leaving bruising.

Thank you.

[Pedigree Ann]

The parts of a horse where use of the bat is allowed are where there are big, heavy muscles and tougher hide that can absorb a moderate impact without becoming injured. But there are places on the flank, inside and just ahead of the hip, where the skin is more tender and easier to damage: part of the proverbially soft underbelly. One is not supposed to hit the horse there in any circumstances, but I have to wonder if this is where these guys 'marked' their mounts. When the horse is extended, this tender area is exposed more than usual and if the jock was lazy about where his hits land...,

[trackrat59]

Originally Posted by Port Conway Lane

I think it's absurd to fine them. WTF can anyone expect if the industry allows equipment that can potentially cause a welt. Get rid of the whips or equip the horse with something protective.

[Riot]

Originally Posted by Port Conway Lane

I think it's absurd to fine them. WTF can anyone expect if the industry allows equipment that can potentially cause a welt. Get rid of the whips or equip the horse with something protective.

If you think this about whips, what in the world do you think about bits?

[Port Conway Lane]

Originally Posted by Riot

If you think this about whips, what in the world do you think about bits?

Apples and oranges.

Forget the bits for a second and you tell me how a jockey is supposed to whip the horse with just enough force to encourage him but not too much to injure or cause a welt.

The jockeys need to make split second decisions during a race and in addition to that they need to whip the horse with the perfect amount of force ?

Safety for themselves,other riders and the horse are paramount and secondary is their commitment to owners,trainers and bettors to get the horse to the finish line as fast as possible. If the industry can't find equipment designed to help them do their job without injuring the animal whose fault is that ?

I have no idea what the particulars of these two incidents are. If the horses in question were backing up out of contention and the jockeys were whipping them mercilessly then that's one thing. It's another thing if the horse was in a position to affect the parimutuel payoffs.

[Riot]

Originally Posted by Port Conway Lane

Apples and oranges.

Not really, as a jockey can cause extreme pain and physical damage to the mouth, teeth, jaw and spine misusing a bit. You don't see this in the afternoon with professional jocks, but you can cringe watching some guys ride in the mornings, and at smaller tracks.

The point is that the equipment is about as safe as it can be, and the jockeys have a responsibility to know how to use equipment properly.

Forget the bits for a second and you tell me how a jockey is supposed to whip the horse with just enough force to encourage him but not too much to injure or cause a welt.

It's an easy thing to learn. All riders, all disciplines, learn and know how to use whips correctly. Jockeys are professionals. They are required by their job to know, too. And yes, they feel (know) exactly where they can, and cannot, strike a horse with a whip while riding. That's not hard, either. It's easy.

Remember [ Jeremy Rose ] hitting a horse in the eye?

If a horse returns with welts, let alone split skin, it is clearly the fault of the jockey.

When they blow it, when they misuse their equipment to the detriment of the living creature they are riding, they are fined. As they should be.

Nobody wants jocks not to have whips, that could be dangerous.

[3kings]

Originally Posted by Riot

.

Remember Stu Elliot hitting a horse in the eye?

Jeremy Rose?

[Port Conway Lane]

You don't see this in the afternoon with professional jocks

exactly why this is apples and oranges,don't pretend it's not.It has nothing to do with use or misuse of whips.

And yes, they feel (know) exactly where they can, and cannot, strike a horse with a whip while riding

There is simply not enough information in these two incidents for anyone, including myself, to judge wether or not there was abuse and if these two should have been fined. The fact that they were fined would suggest the races in question were observed by the experts so I concede to their judgement.

Don't complain the next time you get nosed out of the tail end of a superfecta if the jockey chose not to use the whip because he was afraid to be fined.