Beyer in Chilie

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by PatCummings

I am not, nor have I ever, suggested that racing in Dubai or anywhere else was drug-free - I would suggest, however, that the height of the rubbish from American trainers about needing to "give their horses time" is a result of permissive race-day medication usage. And if it isn't, then where does that come from?

Nowhere else but in North America do trainers regularly cite those needs - and to say that horses cannot perform at top levels, within say three to seven days after a previous top effort is simply ignorant. It happens with absolute regularity most everywhere else in the world at some point in the year. The closest to that happening in the US is the Triple Crown.

Would anyone like to offer some suggestions as to what it is that makes our trainers unable to garner the same performance from their horses as trainers on four other continents?

Do you have any actual experience training racehorses?

Do you know that the trend of horses "needing more time" comes from influences outside of the backside right? That the sheets guys with an assist from Bobby Frankel's astronomical success (which the sheets guys kind of took some credit for because he campaigned horses with help of the sheets while at the same time accusing Frankel of cheating which may or may not have been true)

The truth is that the top trainers not running their horses as much filters down because people follow what successful people do or at least what they think they do. Not to mention that unlike Europe or Dubai or Hong Kong we race all year long. When there was less winter racing in this country horses raced harder during the racing season because they knew they were going to get down time in the Winter.

And the influence of owners has a lot to do with it as well. Since they all flock to the same trainers who train with the more time motto, why is it surprising that other trainers follow suit? And it should be understood that trainers often publicly lie about the condition of their horses for reasons that anyone could understand. It is a lot easier to say the horse needs more time than say he was lame yesterday.

And lets revisit the careers of some famous European horses
Dancing Brave- 10 starts
Zarkava-7 starts
Sea the Stars- 9 starts
Dalakhani-9 starts
Galileo- 8 starts
Conduit-8 starts (2 in NA)
Shirocco-13 starts over 3 seasons
High Chaparral-13 starts over 3 seasons
Kalanisi-11 starts
Daylami-19 starts over 4 seasons

Lets not act like European stakes horses are running more than American stakes horses are.

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by The Indomitable DrugS

My father told me he gave steroids to everything. So that abuse was going back at least as far as the early 70's ... he disagrees and said he thought it made the horses stronger and - if anything - able to race more often.

Properly used they can certainly help. But lets not act like with no guidelines there wasn't abuse. Giving steroids to young horses before they are training is probably as big of abuse as their is and that has zero to do with training. That didnt start in the 70's because up to 20 years ago horses were not prepped (trained basically) for the yearling sales like they do now.

[freddymo]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

Do you have any actual experience training racehorses?

Do you know that the trend of horses "needing more time" comes from influences outside of the backside right? That the sheets guys with an assist from Bobby Frankel's astronomical success (which the sheets guys kind of took some credit for because he campaigned horses with help of the sheets while at the same time accusing Frankel of cheating which may or may not have been true)

The truth is that the top trainers not running their horses as much filters down because people follow what successful people do or at least what they think they do. Not to mention that unlike Europe or Dubai or Hong Kong we race all year long. When there was less winter racing in this country horses raced harder during the racing season because they knew they were going to get down time in the Winter.

And the influence of owners has a lot to do with it as well. Since they all flock to the same trainers who train with the more time motto, why is it surprising that other trainers follow suit? And it should be understood that trainers often publicly lie about the condition of their horses for reasons that anyone could understand. It is a lot easier to say the horse needs more time than say he was lame yesterday.

And lets revisit the careers of some famous European horses
Dancing Brave- 10 starts
Zarkava-7 starts
Sea the Stars- 9 starts
Dalakhani-9 starts
Galileo- 8 starts
Conduit-8 starts (2 in NA)
Shirocco-13 starts over 3 seasons
High Chaparral-13 starts over 3 seasons
Kalanisi-11 starts
Daylami-19 starts over 4 seasons

Lets not act like European stakes horses are running more than American stakes horses are.

Sea the Stars and Zarkava arent good examples IMO.. The issue is that virtually no horses in this country race more then 25 times a year. I find that rather amazing

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

Properly used they can certainly help. But lets not act like with no guidelines there wasn't abuse. Giving steroids to young horses before they are training is probably as big of abuse as their is and that has zero to do with training. That didnt start in the 70's because up to 20 years ago horses were not prepped (trained basically) for the yearling sales like they do now.

Originally Posted by freddymo

Sea the Stars and Zarkava arent good examples IMO.. The issue is that virtually no horses in this country race more then 25 times a year. I find that rather amazing

Sea the Stars is American bred through and through btw.

[freddymo]

Sea the Stars is American bred through and through btw.

That is why he had to be retired.

[freddymo]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

Sea the Stars is American bred through and through btw.

Why because Cape Cross is a Green Desert? What definition of a thru and thru Am. bred?

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by freddymo

Why because Cape Cross is a Green Desert? What definition of a thru and thru Am. bred?

By a grandson of Danzig out of a son of Mr Prospector? Sounds like a lot of American blood

[freddymo]

Originally Posted by PatCummings

Bottom line - the American breed of thoroughbred is substantially weaker in comparison to horses reared in other countries. An overwhelming focus on speed and a wholehearted overbreeding has led to what we have today. A ton of horses who race less frequently, bleed, etc.

Can horses come back in a few days and run again and win? Then again? And again? Absolutely. Happens in...not Chile...but the UK...and more than you think. I can think of two recent examples of horses who did it.

FINAL DRIVE - UK-based horse who won three times over 15 days in November, and then after a third beaten a nose, came back and won three more times in 18 days in December.

http://www.attheraces.com/search.asp...l+drive&type=H

SILAAH - also based in the UK - had two seconds and two wins in 22 days before shipping to Dubai and grabbing second in a $110,000 race.

http://www.attheraces.com/search.asp...=silaah&type=H

Click the links and then their names to bring up lifetime free PPs.

To me, the greatest indictment about the pervasiveness of drugs in American racing is not best shown by what happens in the US, but rather, by what happens everywhere else. American racing is the pariah. WE are the crazy ones, at least in the minds of the rest of the racing world. Can horses be raced with such frequency? The answer is yes...

Can it be done in the US? Not so much...

Silaah is a 7 year old has raced a whopping 28 times and earned an amazing 89k in his glorious career. Silaah is a nickel claimer and a bad one. He would be hard pressed to beat 7500 nl2 at Parx with or without raceday meds

[PatCummings]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

Do you have any actual experience training racehorses?

Do you know that the trend of horses "needing more time" comes from influences outside of the backside right? That the sheets guys with an assist from Bobby Frankel's astronomical success (which the sheets guys kind of took some credit for because he campaigned horses with help of the sheets while at the same time accusing Frankel of cheating which may or may not have been true)

The truth is that the top trainers not running their horses as much filters down because people follow what successful people do or at least what they think they do. Not to mention that unlike Europe or Dubai or Hong Kong we race all year long. When there was less winter racing in this country horses raced harder during the racing season because they knew they were going to get down time in the Winter.

And the influence of owners has a lot to do with it as well. Since they all flock to the same trainers who train with the more time motto, why is it surprising that other trainers follow suit? And it should be understood that trainers often publicly lie about the condition of their horses for reasons that anyone could understand. It is a lot easier to say the horse needs more time than say he was lame yesterday.

And lets revisit the careers of some famous European horses
Dancing Brave- 10 starts
Zarkava-7 starts
Sea the Stars- 9 starts
Dalakhani-9 starts
Galileo- 8 starts
Conduit-8 starts (2 in NA)
Shirocco-13 starts over 3 seasons
High Chaparral-13 starts over 3 seasons
Kalanisi-11 starts
Daylami-19 starts over 4 seasons

Lets not act like European stakes horses are running more than American stakes horses are.

I don't have any experience training racehorses, and I don't mean to sound snarky, but based on what you said above, it sounds like I don't need much considering how much watching others and replicating their actions plays a role in training...and maybe some should question the long-term impact of Bobby Frankel's training methods and how that has potentially hurt US racing (I know there have been some stories about this in the past).

No one needs experience, either, to state the obvious - American horses don't come back and run in four days, or eight days, and do it with any success. Trainers can lie all they want about their rationale, that's also obvious many times (Guerrero and his cheeks as mentioned in another thread). What happens in some examples in the rest of the world is dramatically different than what happens here, same breed, very very different handling, durability, etc.

The UK racing season is year round now with the installation of several all-weather surfaces, same in France. It's not high quality racing, but neither are many of our year-round circuits. At the top levels, it's near impossible to ignore the fact that the majority of graded-caliber American older horses run about an eight-month season from April (Keeneland) to Breeders' Cup or so.

Maybe we will just agree to disagree - but for now, nothing is going to change my opinion that the rest of the world is, on average, able to get more out of a thoroughbred than those based in America.

[freddymo]

Originally Posted by PatCummings

I don't have any experience training racehorses, and I don't mean to sound snarky, but based on what you said above, it sounds like I don't need much considering how much watching others and replicating their actions plays a role in training...and maybe some should question the long-term impact of Bobby Frankel's training methods and how that has potentially hurt US racing (I know there have been some stories about this in the past).

No one needs experience, either, to state the obvious - American horses don't come back and run in four days, or eight days, and do it with any success. Trainers can lie all they want about their rationale, that's also obvious many times (Guerrero and his cheeks as mentioned in another thread). What happens in some examples in the rest of the world is dramatically different than what happens here, same breed, very very different handling, durability, etc.

The UK racing season is year round now with the installation of several all-weather surfaces, same in France. It's not high quality racing, but neither are many of our year-round circuits. At the top levels, it's near impossible to ignore the fact that the majority of graded-caliber American older horses run about an eight-month season from April (Keeneland) to Breeders' Cup or so.

Maybe we will just agree to disagree - but for now, nothing is going to change my opinion that the rest of the world is, on average, able to get more out of a thoroughbred than those based in America.

Yeah your nickel Sihaal is a terriffic gift. The pig has raced 28 times is a 7 year old and was in races with purses of 7k months ago. Apparently the downgrade in competition in Dubai is all the Nickel Claimer needed to shine at 7. Have a heart bro you are clueless

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by PatCummings

I don't have any experience training racehorses, and I don't mean to sound snarky, but based on what you said above, it sounds like I don't need much considering how much watching others and replicating their actions plays a role in training...and maybe some should question the long-term impact of Bobby Frankel's training methods and how that has potentially hurt US racing (I know there have been some stories about this in the past).

No one needs experience, either, to state the obvious - American horses don't come back and run in four days, or eight days, and do it with any success. Trainers can lie all they want about their rationale, that's also obvious many times (Guerrero and his cheeks as mentioned in another thread). What happens in some examples in the rest of the world is dramatically different than what happens here, same breed, very very different handling, durability, etc.

The UK racing season is year round now with the installation of several all-weather surfaces, same in France. It's not high quality racing, but neither are many of our year-round circuits. At the top levels, it's near impossible to ignore the fact that the majority of graded-caliber American older horses run about an eight-month season from April (Keeneland) to Breeders' Cup or so.

Maybe we will just agree to disagree - but for now, nothing is going to change my opinion that the rest of the world is, on average, able to get more out of a thoroughbred than those based in America.

Pat

You just are comparing apples and oranges. You know as well as I do that if an American trainer ran a horse bck in 5 days and it didnt win and continue to win than everyone would point their fingers and say "that guy is killing his horses". For what? So people on a message board can say American horses are tough too?

The racing season in France and the UK is effectively over in November and doesnt start back till April. The Winter racing there is the equal to Hawthorne. I wouldn't call Hawthorne the epitome of American racing.

What you are doing is making a nebulous statement that cant really be proven or disproven. If you would base your opinion on some sort of hard evidence or even flimsy evidence perhaps we could discuss the topic with a little more depth. Do you seriously think that American trainers couldn't go to Europe or Australia or where ever and do well? LOL It is ridiculous. Because the style of racing and training vary so much it would take some time to get used to but n the end training is mostly about the ability of your horses and your owners ability to understand that. Regardless of surface, distance or rate of starting.

[freddymo]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

Pat

You just are comparing apples and oranges. You know as well as I do that if an American trainer ran a horse bck in 5 days and it didnt win and continue to win than everyone would point their fingers and say "that guy is killing his horses". For what? So people on a message board can say American horses are tough too?

The racing season in France and the UK is effectively over in November and doesnt start back till April. The Winter racing there is the equal to Hawthorne. I wouldn't call Hawthorne the epitome of American racing.

What you are doing is making a nebulous statement that cant really be proven or disproven. If you would base your opinion on some sort of hard evidence or even flimsy evidence perhaps we could discuss the topic with a little more depth. Do you seriously think that American trainers couldn't go to Europe or Australia or where ever and do well? LOL It is ridiculous. Because the style of racing and training vary so much it would take some time to get used to but n the end training is mostly about the ability of your horses and your owners ability to understand that. Regardless of surface, distance or rate of starting.

1 ANDRE FABRE 2 ALAIN DE ROYER DUPRE 3 ROUGET (S) 4 SIR MICHAEL R. STOUTE 5 ELIE LELLOUCHE 6 HEAD 7 Juan Carlos 8 Jaime Ness 9 Steph Beatty 10 Scooter Davis... Projected 2011 Longchamps trainer standings


Chuck his evidence is that a horse that is 7 with 28 career starts and 90k in career earnings race 12 times in 6 weeks in races with 7k purses at C level tracks then came to fantasy land and came in second. If you can get Kicken and Screaming back into training she could pick up a nice check every week in Dubai..

[Cannon Shell]

“Because Flashpoint had some of your basic 2-year-old problems and needed time to smooth things out, the traditional way of getting to the Derby was not an option this year,” Fort said. “Because the traditional way doesn’t work I have to figure out a new punch to knock these guys out with, because that’s the only way I can fight them. I’m not looking just to get to the Derby. I’ve been there three times and have run second. I need to find a way to win, and the best way to do that is with this colt’s fabulous speed.

“He’s extremely fast, he’s extremely sound, and he has a very even temperament, so why not use the ace I’ve been dealt? He has a massive hip and I could run him in the Florida Derby and he might win, but I don’t want to run him two turns and have him get tired and run the race of his life before the Derby. So, let’s try to do it a different way this year and train up to the Derby using his natural speed. It’s not the traditional method, but there are so many horses now who go into the Derby off only two starts at 3, and it’s now become popular to have more time between races. So, who’s to say this can’t be done?

Fort said he hasn’t spoken with trainer Rick Dutrow Jr. yet, but this is the way he is leaning at this point.

Think Andre Fabve has to face things like this?

Read more: http://www.bloodhorse.com/horse-raci...#ixzz1FTuWdzGv

[freddymo]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

“Because Flashpoint had some of your basic 2-year-old problems and needed time to smooth things out, the traditional way of getting to the Derby was not an option this year,” Fort said. “Because the traditional way doesn’t work I have to figure out a new punch to knock these guys out with, because that’s the only way I can fight them. I’m not looking just to get to the Derby. I’ve been there three times and have run second. I need to find a way to win, and the best way to do that is with this colt’s fabulous speed.

“He’s extremely fast, he’s extremely sound, and he has a very even temperament, so why not use the ace I’ve been dealt? He has a massive hip and I could run him in the Florida Derby and he might win, but I don’t want to run him two turns and have him get tired and run the race of his life before the Derby. So, let’s try to do it a different way this year and train up to the Derby using his natural speed. It’s not the traditional method, but there are so many horses now who go into the Derby off only two starts at 3, and it’s now become popular to have more time between races. So, who’s to say this can’t be done?

Fort said he hasn’t spoken with trainer Rick Dutrow Jr. yet, but this is the way he is leaning at this point.

Think Andre Fabve has to face things like this?

Read more: http://www.bloodhorse.com/horse-raci...#ixzz1FTuWdzGv

No but neither does Bill Mott to be fair. I am not sold on the Frankel/sheets conspiracy theory on why horses race less. Nor do I buy all the horses are with 10 trainers that train the same way story. For whatever reason US based horses aren't racing as often as they used too.

It is so funny guy wins a stakes race and is looking to set up SPECIAL purses if he can get a horse to ship. Flashpoint got a 10x BSF not a 153

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by freddymo

No but neither does Bill Mott to be fair. I am not sold on the Frankel/sheets conspiracy theory on why horses race less. Nor do I buy all the horses are with 10 trainers that train the same way story. For whatever reason US based horses aren't racing as often as they used too.

It is so funny guy wins a stakes race and is looking to set up SPECIAL purses if he can get a horse to ship. Flashpoint got a 10x BSF not a 153

There is no doubt that Frankel's influence has effected the way top class horses have been campaigned. Pretty much every top trainer now trains using sheet numbers and if the trainer isnt getting the numbers, the owners/racing managers are. The funny thing is most of the owners are still losing money.

No one is saying they train the same way (though for the most part they do) but they al campaign the horses that way. And add in the fact that the tracks have adjusted the schedules as well.

Of course lets remember that the top 10 guys train less than 1% of the horses.

[Cannon Shell]

And dont think Mott operates on an island either. He pretty publicly made it known that running Cigar at Hollywood wasn't his idea but Paulsens.

[freddymo]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

And dont think Mott operates on an island either. He pretty publicly made it known that running Cigar at Hollywood wasn't his idea but Paulsens.

That was a lot of graded wins ago.

I realize guys use sheets and train off others past success but still something seems wrong when no horses are capable of 25 starts in a year.

[PatCummings]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

Pat

You just are comparing apples and oranges. You know as well as I do that if an American trainer ran a horse bck in 5 days and it didnt win and continue to win than everyone would point their fingers and say "that guy is killing his horses". For what?

Here, we completely agree. It is apples and oranges. The North American way of doing things - and then everyone else. It isn't necessarily good or bad.

Gooey prefers the stallions in Ecuawhore.

[jms62]

Just listened to Dick Powell on ATR and he said you have to listen to de Kock. Everytime I do it just costs me money and gets me in trouble... Especially after a few pops, de Kock starts to make alot of sense and I basically follow him blindly but the results are usually the same. It costs me money and gets me in trouble.