1973 Preakness (UPDATE: Maryland accepts 1:53.0)

[Danzig]

Originally Posted by somerfrost

1. Secretariat
2. Kincsem...always catch hell for this one but check her out!
3. Man O War...despite the fact that I feel he ducked Exterminator.
4. Citation
5. Native Dancer

and there's some who criticize native dancer because he never faced tom fool. not exactly consistent....
and yeah, you catch hell for kincsem for good reason.

[FATPIANO]

Originally Posted by Danzig

secretariat has a huge following because of his tc, when he was flat out awesome. i have to say that i rate the bid ahead of him tho. 26/30 in three years time, with no loss the last year imo is far better than 16/21-which isn't even an 'a' average! sec lost 1/4 of his races when you look at it in that light. he had an amazing spring. he was an amazing horse, but i don't think he was the best ever. the bid won more races than secretariat even entered. of course that's no more secretariats fault than man o war not facing exterminator would be mow's fault.

[somerfrost]

Originally Posted by Danzig

secretariat has a huge following because of his tc, when he was flat out awesome. i have to say that i rate the bid ahead of him tho. 26/30 in three years time, with no loss the last year imo is far better than 16/21-which isn't even an 'a' average! sec lost 1/4 of his races when you look at it in that light. he had an amazing spring. he was an amazing horse, but i don't think he was the best ever. the bid won more races than secretariat even entered. of course that's no more secretariats fault than man o war not facing exterminator would be mow's fault.

Didn't mean to imply MOW ducked Exterminator himself, rather his connections did. Like I said the top 9 (imo) can all have a case for them being #1 (after the Bid at #6, I have Ribot, Count Fleet and Sea Bird). Zenyatta's placement was a joke to still folks up and it was successful. I have Eclipse at #10 and that's obviously subjective, St Simon, Kelso, Colin, Seattle Slew, Affirmed and Dr Fagar are next.

[somerfrost]

Originally Posted by Danzig

and there's some who criticize native dancer because he never faced tom fool. not exactly consistent....
and yeah, you catch hell for kincsem for good reason.

So Cal Cool (for those who remember him) and I are the only two who respect Kincsem...different eras are always subjective (was Ty Cobb better than Pete Rose?).

[Danzig]

Originally Posted by somerfrost

So Cal Cool (for those who remember him) and I are the only two who respect Kincsem...different eras are always subjective (was Ty Cobb better than Pete Rose?).

i remember socal...but it's difficult enough comparing two horses who ran during the same time period...it's impossible with a hungarian mare who's more myth than reality.

[slotdirt]

I don't doubt that Kincsem was awesome, but saying she is in the top five ever would be like calling Cap Anson the best player ever because he killed NL pitching in the 1880's.

[somerfrost]

Originally Posted by slotdirt

I don't doubt that Kincsem was awesome, but saying she is in the top five ever would be like calling Cap Anson the best player ever because he killed NL pitching in the 1880's.

Exactly! What is the way one measures greatness? It's purely subjective...hell, the Bid and Secretariat never faced each other. Kincsem dominated European racing the way no other horse has...one either looks at her and sees a truly great horse...or not!

[tiggerv]

Originally Posted by Calzone Lord

Both horses were incredible on their day -- and both proven on turf (however much you value that)

Curious how much weight you give turf success? It's one of the reasons why I have Dr. Fager above Bid. I don't think even Bid could have matched Dr. Fager's last three races as a 4yo:

Breaks world record at a mile (132 1/5) while carrying 134. Ran 2nd quarter in 20 1/5.
Wins the 9.5F United Nations on grass while giving two time turf horse of the year, Ft Marcy, 16 lbs. He was 1/5 off track record on soggy turf
Breaks the track record in the 7F Vosburgh by over a second (120 1/5) while carrying 139

[Merlinsky]

Originally Posted by somerfrost

Didn't mean to imply MOW ducked Exterminator himself, rather his connections did. Like I said the top 9 (imo) can all have a case for them being #1 (after the Bid at #6, I have Ribot, Count Fleet and Sea Bird). Zenyatta's placement was a joke to still folks up and it was successful. I have Eclipse at #10 and that's obviously subjective, St Simon, Kelso, Colin, Seattle Slew, Affirmed and Dr Fagar are next.

Ducked Exterminator? You've got to be kidding. They invited Exterminator to face Man O' War and Sir Barton in their "match race" but Exterminator's connections didn't want to face those 2 horses at 1 1/4. They wanted a longer race. I believe the ideal distance on their part was something like 1 3/4 even though Exterminator had won the Derby at that distance. Exterminator won the Saratoga Cup 4 times at 1 3/4 if you count that walkover. They ducked MOW, not the other way around.

[Danzig]

Originally Posted by Merlinsky

Ducked Exterminator? You've got to be kidding. They invited Exterminator to face Man O' War and Sir Barton in their "match race" but Exterminator's connections didn't want to face those 2 horses at 1 1/4. They wanted a longer race. I believe the ideal distance on their part was something like 1 3/4 even though Exterminator had won the Derby at that distance. Exterminator won the Saratoga Cup 4 times at 1 3/4 if you count that walkover. They ducked MOW, not the other way around.

good luck merlinsky. i've argued the point before, and gotten nowhere.

[somerfrost]

Originally Posted by Danzig

good luck merlinsky. i've argued the point before, and gotten nowhere.

from Wikipedia:
"When Man o' War was three, Kilmer tried for a match race between the two horses. Somehow, Man o' War's owner, Samuel Riddle, although seeming to agree, never managed to have that happen."

[somerfrost]

From Spiletta.com:
"Mr. Kilmer had spent much of the season attempting to convince Samuel Riddle, the owner of Man o' War, to let his horse meet Exterminator in a match race. Mr. Riddle refused, suggesting that the horses might cross paths without a special match. On August 28, while Exterminator was winning the George Hendrie Memorial from Wildair and the good filly My Dear, Samuel Riddle made the announcement that Man o' War would start in the Saratoga Cup, three days away. Hearing the news, Kilmer immediately sent for Exterminator, but Man o' War was scratched upon the gelding's return to Saratoga."

[Indian Charlie]

Originally Posted by Calzone Lord

Kelso, Dr. Fager, and Secretariat are the only three that one could rationally make a case for to rate ahead of Spectacular Bid.

I would put SB #1 and Kelso #2 -- and any list that doesn't include the two of them in the top 5 is not at all well thought out.

Secretariat and Dr. Fager are two that one could justifiably put as high as #1 and as low as maybe 10th or 12th.

If you ran a rabbit at Dr. Fager he wouldn't run up to his par. He also missed some important dances. Secretariat had five uninspiring performances at age 3 -- and he didn't race at age 4. Both horses were incredible on their day -- and both proven on turf (however much you value that)

Kinscem is a hysterically awful selection. She doesn't belong in a top 1,000.

I'm not really sure how you can historically rate Kinscem. There seems to be such little to go on, and yeah, it's probable that she is overrated, it is also possible she was just a horse that was ahead of the breed at the time.

[Indian Charlie]

Originally Posted by Danzig

secretariat has a huge following because of his tc, when he was flat out awesome. i have to say that i rate the bid ahead of him tho. 26/30 in three years time, with no loss the last year imo is far better than 16/21-which isn't even an 'a' average! sec lost 1/4 of his races when you look at it in that light. he had an amazing spring. he was an amazing horse, but i don't think he was the best ever. the bid won more races than secretariat even entered. of course that's no more secretariats fault than man o war not facing exterminator would be mow's fault.

Secretariat had valid 'excuses' in at least two of those losses though and also ran in a great great crop. Not that the Bid's crop sucked by any means, but the 70 foal crop was loaded.

[slotdirt]

Has DrugS posted his Exterminator dissertation yet? That would make for good reading.

[Indian Charlie]

There were some pretty good European horses over the last 50 years too. People seem to think the best horses only race in the USA.

Horses like Mill Reef, Mumtaz Mahal, Nijinsky, Ribot (already mentioned) have always been interesting reads to me.

Brigadier Gerard was a fascinating horse too. I think he won like 18 of 19.

From his Wiki page:

He entered the season's first colts' classic, the 2,000 Guineas at Newmarket, without a preparatory race. As they lined for the race, Brigadier Gerard, Mill Reef and My Swallow had between them won 18 out of their 19 races.

In one of the most eagerly anticipated races ever, Brigadier Gerard won in devastating fashion by three lengths from Mill Reef and My Swallow. Brigadier Gerard followed that victory with wins in the St. James's Palace Stakes, the Sussex Stakes by five lengths, the Goodwood Mile by ten lengths, the Queen Elizabeth II Stakes by eight lengths, and the Champion Stakes.

At a mile he was unbeatable on anything but very soft ground (he only narrowly won the St James's Palace Stakes on heavy ground). He was kept out of the Epsom Derby by his owners because they were unsure how far he would stay as his pedigree was more that of a miler than a middle distance horse (Mill Reef went on to win the race and was never defeated again). At the end of his three year old season he was undefeated in ten races at distances between five furlongs and a mile and a quarter.

[Calzone Lord]

Originally Posted by Indian Charlie

I'm not really sure how you can historically rate Kinscem. There seems to be such little to go on, and yeah, it's probable that she is overrated, it is also possible she was just a horse that was ahead of the breed at the time.

She only won a single important race --- she came into it with a perfect 37-for-37 record and was the 5-2 longest shot on the board in a 3-horse field -- and she got an 8lbs weight break from 2nd place going 2.5 miles.

[Danzig]

Originally Posted by somerfrost

from Wikipedia:
"When Man o' War was three, Kilmer tried for a match race between the two horses. Somehow, Man o' War's owner, Samuel Riddle, although seeming to agree, never managed to have that happen."

try dorothy ours book. i've read it and recommend it. or even the legends series book. matter of fact, it seems the last time we went into this, i did put up something from dorothy ours and it was never remarked upon by you. perception is reality.

[Calzone Lord]

Originally Posted by Indian Charlie

There were some pretty good European horses over the last 50 years too. People seem to think the best horses only race in the USA.

No one who posts here (including myself) is even remotely qualified to talk about comparing and rating past European stars from the last 50 years.

The courses over there and the way everything is handled makes such speculation hopeless.

[Calzone Lord]

Originally Posted by slotdirt

I don't doubt that Kincsem was awesome, but saying she is in the top five ever would be like calling Cap Anson the best player ever because he killed NL pitching in the 1880's.

The respected European racing writers of old don't see her as one of their top horses.