Maylaysian plane with 295 on board shot down in Ukraine

[Danzig]

Originally Posted by Rudeboyelvis

Really? The "state over whose territory this occurred" is at war to save their sovereignty.

I would say that the Malaysian Airline pilot/co pilot/navigator who recklessly endangered these people by purposely flying through, what is tantamount to a frigging missile range - against the advice of multiple international agencies to avoid the area - bears 100% of the responsibility.

This was completely avoidable.

I agree, it was absolutely unconscionable that they flew that way.

I recommend no one fly on that airline, it's crazy.

And so is putin

[joeydb]

Originally Posted by jms62

So are you suggesting we jump into another unfunded war before all the facts are known? Would a horrible accident where civilians are killed constitute grounds for going to war? Could it be that you and your ilk are simply using this tragedy to disparage the actions of your rival party whatever those actions are without any regard to the costs of those actions to the country both human and financial? I find this absolutely despicable. While you're at it maybe you should "pray" for a soul for you and those willing to sacrifice our youth based on unconfirmed information from the front lines blaming the enemy for purposely and knowingly shooting down a civilian aircraft.

PS
Good luck at Saratoga today

Um - no - not suggesting that at all. I was simply stating that there is precedent for casualties in an attack, prior to which were not part of the hostilities, leading eventually to involvement in a war. I had remembered that history teachers cited "unrestricted submarine warfare" as the cause of our involvment - and the Lusitania sinking the primary event of that rationale.

Having said that, Danzig's post about the Zimmerman telegram makes a much more concrete case, and the Lusitania sinking would be of lesser importance. Apparently my high school history teacher generalized a bit too much.

Independent of all this theory, I would say the opposite - we ought to steer clear of a confrontation with the Russians if we can avoid it.

PS. Good luck to you as well in Saratoga. And everyone else. Wishing our guys many big ticket winners.

[Danzig]

Originally Posted by joeydb

Um - no - not suggesting that at all. I was simply stating that there is precedent for casualties in an attack, prior to which were not part of the hostilities, leading eventually to involvement in a war. I had remembered that history teachers cited "unrestricted submarine warfare" as the cause of our involvment - and the Lusitania sinking the primary event of that rationale.

Having said that, Danzig's post about the Zimmerman telegram makes a much more concrete case, and the Lusitania sinking would be of lesser importance. Apparently my high school history teacher generalized a bit too much.

Independent of all this theory, I would say the opposite - we ought to steer clear of a confrontation with the Russians if we can avoid it.

PS. Good luck to you as well in Saratoga. And everyone else. Wishing our guys many big ticket winners.

yeah, it's a common myth, that we entered due to that boat sinking. some people started calling for us to enter due to the boat being torpedoed, but it wasn't enough to warrant entering the war.
in '17, germany felt they were on the cusp of winning, with good reason. they thought a few more months of very tough action on their part would end it.
so, after several times of them increasing strikes on shipping, only to have us make them stop, the ramped it up again. they figured by the time we got word that shipping was once again an issue, and if we tried to do anything, it would be too late.
but then the zimmerman note came to light. we'd been having issues with mexico (where pershing and patton had been, taking on pancho villa) already.
mexico would never have done what germany wanted, but it was one too many things germany had done.
we went in, turned the tide, and that was that.

i sometimes wonder, tho....what if we'd not gotten involved then? the changes to history would have been astonishing.

[Danzig]

http://www.slate.com/blogs/future_te..._the_mh17.html

an IP address at VGTRK, the state-run TV and radio network, edited the Russian-language Wikipedia page about aviation accidents to say that Malaysia Air Flight MH17 “was shot down by Ukrainian soldiers.”

[Pants II]

meh.

[RockHardTen1985]

Originally Posted by jms62

So are you suggesting we jump into another unfunded war before all the facts are known? Would a horrible accident where civilians are killed constitute grounds for going to war? Could it be that you and your ilk are simply using this tragedy to disparage the actions of your rival party whatever those actions are without any regard to the costs of those actions to the country both human and financial? I find this absolutely despicable. While you're at it maybe you should "pray" for a soul for you and those willing to sacrifice our youth based on unconfirmed information from the front lines blaming the enemy for purposely and knowingly shooting down a civilian aircraft.

PS
Good luck at Saratoga today

Of course we get the facts first, but if 23 Americans died, then yes retaliation is in order.

[Danzig]

http://www.slate.com/blogs/the_slate...r_he_says.html


just saw this....unbelievable.

"Rebel Leader Suggests Some MH17 Victims Were Killed Before Plane Took Off"

[GBBob]

Originally Posted by RockHardTen1985

Of course we get the facts first, but if 23 Americans died, then yes retaliation is in order.

Have you read anything? 23 Americans didn't die...Does't make it any the less horrific, but facts are facts

[dellinger63]

Originally Posted by GBBob

Have you read anything? 23 Americans didn't die...Does't make it any the less horrific, but facts are facts

Malaysia Airlines says that there were 192 Dutch, 44 Malaysian (including 15 crew and 2 infants), 27 Australian, 12 Indonesian (including 1 infant), 9 United Kingdom, 4 Germany, 4 Belgium, 3 Philippines, 1 New Zealand, 1 American, and 1 Canadian residents on board.

With the job Obama has done this past week, failing to get Iran to agree to anything after giving them one extension after another, sanctions against Russia that are so extreme and debilitating, they are shooting planes down, illegals flooding across the 'open' border for some of our taxpayer paid government cheese to the tune of almost $4 billion, advising Israel to cease fire on those trying to annihilate the entire country and all the fundraising he has done, he deserves a weekend vacation.

Enjoy Mr. President and you've done so much maybe consider taking an extended sabbatical?

[GBBob]

Originally Posted by dellinger63

With the job Obama has done this past week, failing to get Iran to agree to anything after giving them one extension after another, sanctions against Russia that are so extreme and debilitating, they are shooting planes down, illegals flooding across the 'open' border for some of our taxpayer paid government cheese to the tune of almost $4 billion, advising Israel to cease fire on those trying to annihilate the entire country and all the fundraising he has done, he deserves a weekend vacation.

Enjoy Mr. President and you've done so much maybe consider taking an extended sabbatical?

Brilliant Steve...thank goodness he's in office.

You coming down today?

[jms62]

Originally Posted by GBBob

Brilliant Steve...thank goodness he's in office.

You coming down today?

You really want him in a public place after that ****ing Goldilocks politics post? Good luck today.

[Rudeboyelvis]

"Can you believe they moved the red tips back!!?? Oh - and a plane got shot down in the middle of a war zone...better make some political hay while it's fresh"

~ Obama at Congressional CC immediately after his 40 second response to the downing of the airline.

[Danzig]

http://news.msn.com/world/ukraine-of...ear-crash-site