Just for a change of pace

[Honu]

Perhaps if the enemy were waging a "fair" war against us I might have a bigger problem with torture but they are not and did not . They killed thousands of innocent people for no good reason , they really dont deserve to be treated like prisoners of war under the Geneva Convention.
I trust that the people involved did what they could to get results and really I hope all of those suckers that Obama is going to free tell their friends "hey those Americans dont mess around when they capture you" so you better hope you die right away when you mess with them.

[satan's twin]

Originally Posted by dellinger63

I'd call it torture but I called my marriage torture as well.

I'll call it what it was--------brief.

[brianwspencer]

Originally Posted by satan's twin

I'll call it what it was--------brief.

And the day has been saved.

[satan's twin]

Originally Posted by brianwspencer

And the day has been saved.

I wasn't home from the wedding reception and out of my suit before I heard the 'marriage' was on the rocks. Three hours of wedded bliss......and here I thought it would never last.

[brianwspencer]

Originally Posted by satan's twin

I wasn't home from the wedding reception and out of my suit before I heard the 'marriage' was on the rocks. Three hours of wedded bliss......and here I thought it would never last.

Thank you. I now have a better understanding as to what it is exactly that I am threatening in such a grave way.

[dellinger63]

Originally Posted by satan's twin

I wasn't home from the wedding reception and out of my suit before I heard the 'marriage' was on the rocks. Three hours of wedded bliss......and here I thought it would never last.

You got to spend 3 hrs w/the Nazi in-laws and got yelled at. Just imagine the horror at the prospect of walking to their house every night after ice cream. Sitting in a closed van in 90 degree weather w/a 6'5" farting smoker was the day's highlight back then.

[brianwspencer]

Originally Posted by dellinger63

You got to spend 3 hrs w/the Nazi in-laws and got yelled at. Just imagine the horror at the prospect of walking to their house every night after ice cream. Sitting in a closed van in 90 degree weather w/a 6'5" farting smoker was the day's highlight back then.

Remind me to tell you about my workplace sometime this summer.

[miraja2]

Originally Posted by Honu

They have done worse than waterboarding to our guys that have been captured , go to your local veterans hall and talk to some of the guys that managed to live thru being captured during WW2 , Korea and Vietnam , Im sure making someone think they are drowning pales in comparision to what these men went thru. What do you think would have worked to get information out of someone who would like to blow your whole country up?

For the record Senator McCain cant lift his arms above his chest why do you think that is , because they were nice to him ?

[hi_im_god]

some republican's have come quite a ways from ronald reagan's america as a "bright shining city on a hill" analogy.

to be fair, good men like john mccain did all they could to mitigate the damage being done in the bush years (which makes honu's use of him as an example for use of torture a surrealistic misfire).

but for the most part i guess most just gave up the idea of being a nation founded on ideals like the rule of law. it's just eye for an eye time.

[SOREHOOF]

Great Post! People fighting out of uniform have no protection under Geneva Convention.

Originally Posted by satan's twin

I wasn't home from the wedding reception and out of my suit before I heard the 'marriage' was on the rocks. Three hours of wedded bliss......and here I thought it would never last.

I will buy a beer for you if I am up that way.
I like tales of woe and comedy.

[Danzig]

Originally Posted by hi_im_god

some republican's have come quite a ways from ronald reagan's america as a "bright shining city on a hill" analogy.

to be fair, good men like john mccain did all they could to mitigate the damage being done in the bush years (which makes honu's use of him as an example for use of torture a surrealistic misfire).

but for the most part i guess most just gave up the idea of being a nation founded on ideals like the rule of law. it's just eye for an eye time.

it's funny in a sad way...some folks are spewing venom at religious fanatics..and sound very much like them.

This subject I personally have a probem with.
I dont think anything needs to be taken off the
table when you have a terrorist situation.

If you have a group with a nuke, in the middle
of LA, waiting to blow up perfectly innocent
citizens for nothing more to kill and incite fear...
I dont take anything off the table if I get one
of these guys.

The problem comes about where to draw the line.
I dont trust some of our intelligence gatherers.
They have already annointed apparently innocent
people and put them through hell.

It is very difficult. I just cant say no never given
the situation in the 2nd paragraph. But if you keep
"torture" or other intelligence gathering methods
as an option, they will certainly be abused. very hard...

The shows this Sunday made it very clear the CIA did
get major intelligence breakthroughs using some
unsavory means. One by waterboarding. It works very
well in certain situations. In others it apparently is
useless.

[brianwspencer]

Originally Posted by pgardn

This subject I personally have a probem with.
I dont think anything needs to be taken off the
table when you have a terrorist situation.

If you have a group with a nuke, in the middle
of LA, waiting to blow up perfectly innocent
citizens for nothing more to kill and incite fear...
I dont take anything off the table if I get one
of these guys.

The problem comes about where to draw the line.
I dont trust some of our intelligence gatherers.
They have already annointed apparently innocent
people and put them through hell.

It is very difficult. I just cant say no never given
the situation in the 2nd paragraph. But if you keep
"torture" or other intelligence gathering methods
as an option, they will certainly be abused. very hard...

The shows this Sunday made it very clear the CIA did
get major intelligence breakthroughs using some
unsavory means. One by waterboarding. It works very
well in certain situations. In others it apparently is
useless.

But any serious intelligence official will tell you that your second paragraph just doesn't happen.

It happens on '24,' but doesn't actually happen in real life -- ticking time bomb scenarios are stuff of fantasy and television. Torture does not come up when deciding whether or not to torture or save Los Angeles. It's a great straw man for backing torture, however, that lots of people use when they don't have a real, substantive argument.

Originally Posted by brianwspencer

But any serious intelligence official will tell you that your second paragraph just doesn't happen.

It happens on '24,' but doesn't actually happen in real life -- ticking time bomb scenarios are stuff of fantasy and television. Torture does not come up when deciding whether or not to torture or save Los Angeles. It's a great straw man for backing torture, however, that lots of people use when they don't have a real, substantive argument.

They might tell you it does not happen.
But there is no way they can tell you it
cannot happen. I seriously never thought
anything like NY could happen.

We had over 2000 people
killed and it could have been 10X that many.
If you are holding people that can give you
evidence about a plot going down, I dont see
how anyone can say absolutely not. Other airplanes
are about to be boarded and you can get info
using a method that is outlawed...?
There is no way I could say you cannot use this
method knowing that it could lead to the slaughter
of a bunch of innocent people living in a crowded
urban area.

[Cannon Shell]

I don't think that any of us has a real clue as to what the CIA does or needs to do in order to keep us safe from the threats that have existed and continue to exist for decades. Who here is really qualified to understand any of these things in a meaningful context? Maybe it is distasteful but I have a hard time believing that the intelligence agencies of virtually every country in the world use tactics that dont work. Obviously we would all prefer terrorists to roll over without resorting to torture but I would guess that this is not the case in a great deal of cases but how would I really know? Some things are just better off unknown...

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by brianwspencer

But any serious intelligence official will tell you that your second paragraph just doesn't happen.

It happens on '24,' but doesn't actually happen in real life -- ticking time bomb scenarios are stuff of fantasy and television. Torture does not come up when deciding whether or not to torture or save Los Angeles. It's a great straw man for backing torture, however, that lots of people use when they don't have a real, substantive argument.

Brian how the hell do you know that? Because some guy trying to sell a book says so? This is a subject that we (hopefully) will never have to have to deal with firsthand.

It was made clear to me on Sunday that
valuable intelligence can be gathered by
waterboarding. It does work in some cases.

Hell I dont even know what criteria is used
to call a method torture. There is physical toture
that is not as bad as mental torture apparently and obviously vice
versa. I just dont want methods that do work in some cases
automatically dismissed. Yet I know there is a chance
and a higher probability the methods will be abused.

Im a mess on this situation.

[Danzig]

Originally Posted by pgardn

It was made clear to me on Sunday that
valuable intelligence can be gathered by
waterboarding. It does work in some cases.

Hell I dont even know what criteria is used
to call a method torture. There is physical toture
that is not as bad as mental torture apparently and obviously vice
versa. I just dont want methods that do work in some cases
automatically dismissed. Yet I know there is a chance
and a higher probability the methods will be abused.

Im a mess on this situation.

just feed them my monster in laws cooking. they'll tell you anything you want to know to avoid that sludge.

Originally Posted by Danzig

just feed them my monster in laws cooking. they'll tell you anything you want to know to avoid that sludge.

In-law torture is the worst kind of mental abuse...