Just for a change of pace

brianwspencer · #1 04-20-2009, 01:38 PM

Topic of the day:

Torture.

Apparently we used to love it.

I see that all of our resident outrage has been wasted on more important topics at the moment, like how to punish, in an All-American way of course, those not giving the requisite amount of respect to the song God Bless America.

Discuss.

dellinger63 · #2 04-20-2009, 01:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by brianwspencer

Topic of the day:

Torture.

Apparently we used to love it.

I see that all of our resident outrage has been wasted on more important topics at the moment, like how to punish, in an All-American way of course, those not giving the requisite amount of respect to the song God Bless America.

Discuss.

I would 'love' to see your source of this. Completely unbiased as usual. I will agree you are consistent.

brianwspencer · #3 04-20-2009, 02:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dellinger63

I would 'love' to see your source of this. Completely unbiased as usual. I will agree you are consistent.

They're official government memos. And we've already established that there is no way on Earth you'll busy yourself even considering reading them. Worldnet Daily probably has a favorable summary for you. But here they are anyway.

This one was particularly delicious. Start at finding a way to call torture something else, and try to talk your way back out of it. It's brilliant, really.

Antitrust32 · #4 04-20-2009, 02:10 PM

waterboarded must really not be that bad if they had to do it 180 or so times on one guy. All that guy did was plan the 9/11 attacks. I wish they would have just held his head under water until he stopped breathing.

Edit: I feel that these memo's should NOT have been released though. Wrong move by BO in my opinion.

brianwspencer · #5 04-20-2009, 02:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Antitrust32

waterboarded must really not be that bad if they had to do it 180 or so times on one guy. All that guy did was plan the 9/11 attacks. I wish they would have just held his head under water until he stopped breathing.

Edit: I feel that these memo's should NOT have been released though. Wrong move by BO in my opinion.

So I can count on you, next time an American is captured by an enemy, to stand tall with his captors in pointing out that it wasn't torture when they put him in a dark box for days on end with just enough air to breathe, then kept awake for 9 days in a row, waterboarded him repeatedly in between which they repeatedly smashed his head against wooden walls, while putting him in positions that wreck his body and muscles, if that were to happen for years at a time?

Yea, I'll see that day.

dellinger63 · #6 04-20-2009, 02:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by brianwspencer

They're official government memos. And we've already established that there is no way on Earth you'll busy yourself even considering reading them. Worldnet Daily probably has a favorable summary for you. But here they are anyway.

This one was particularly delicious. Start at finding a way to call torture something else, and try to talk your way back out of it. It's brilliant, really.

sorry coudn't find any love in there. In fact in 18 pages it's not mentioned once. I cited the Napolitano report now cite where you saw we used to 'love' torture.

brianwspencer · #7 04-20-2009, 02:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dellinger63

sorry coudn't find any love in there. In fact in 18 pages it's not mentioned once. I cited the Napolitano report now cite where you saw we used to 'love' torture.

No $hit Steve. Bush's hack lawyers aren't going to use the word "torture" and talk about how much they love it when trying to talk their way out of taking responsibility for torture. That wasn't quite in dispute.

Go through 18 pages and tell me that what's in there doesn't amount to torture, and then see my question for Lori.

dellinger63 · #8 04-20-2009, 02:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by brianwspencer

So I can count on you, next time an American is captured by an enemy, to stand tall with his captors in pointing out that it wasn't torture when they put him in a dark box for days on end with just enough air to breathe, then kept awake for 9 days in a row, waterboarded him repeatedly in between which they repeatedly smashed his head against wooden walls, while putting him in positions that wreck his body and muscles, if that were to happen for years at a time?

Yea, I'll see that day.

that would be nice to think but instead they just behead us and put it on the net. Or if you're really lucky you get to be hung from a bridge and set on fire. Sitting in a box would be a start

Honu · #9 04-20-2009, 02:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by brianwspencer

So I can count on you, next time an American is captured by an enemy, to stand tall with his captors in pointing out that it wasn't torture when they put him in a dark box for days on end with just enough air to breathe, then kept awake for 9 days in a row, waterboarded him repeatedly in between which they repeatedly smashed his head against wooden walls, while putting him in positions that wreck his body and muscles, if that were to happen for years at a time?

Yea, I'll see that day.

They have done worse than waterboarding to our guys that have been captured , go to your local veterans hall and talk to some of the guys that managed to live thru being captured during WW2 , Korea and Vietnam , Im sure making someone think they are drowning pales in comparision to what these men went thru. What do you think would have worked to get information out of someone who would like to blow your whole country up?

For the record Senator McCain cant lift his arms above his chest why do you think that is , because they were nice to him ?

dellinger63 · #10 04-20-2009, 02:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by brianwspencer

No $hit Steve. Bush's hack lawyers aren't going to use the word "torture" to talk their way out of taking responsibility for torture.

Go through 18 pages and tell me that what's in there doesn't amount to torture, and then see my question for Lori.

I'm not talking about the word torture but the word love. You said we 'loved' torture.

brianwspencer · #11 04-20-2009, 02:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Honu

They have done worse than waterboarding to our guys that have been captured , go to your local veterans hall and talk to some of the guys that managed to live thru being captured during WW2 , Korea and Vietnam , Im sure making someone think they are drowning pales in comparision to what these men went thru. What do you think would have worked to get information out of someone who would like to blow your whole country up?

Quote:

Originally Posted by dellinger63

that would be nice to think but instead they just behead us and put it on the net. Or if you're really lucky you get to be hung from a bridge and set on fire. Sitting in a box would be a start

I wasn't really asking for moral judgment, just wondered whether or not you'd call that torture. I'm not busy comparing it to decapitations...simply trying to understand what's torture and what's not. The moral equivalency portion of the conversation isn't really helpful...or relevant for that matter.

brianwspencer · #12 04-20-2009, 02:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dellinger63

I'm not talking about the word torture but the word love. You said we 'loved' torture.

That was strictly my editorializing, which I'll take credit for.

If I weren't trying to editorialize, I would have said obviously we went well out of our way for years to find pathetic justifications for torturing people without having to be responsible for admitting that we were torturers, instead of saying we "loved it,"

dellinger63 · #13 04-20-2009, 02:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by brianwspencer

I wasn't really asking for moral judgment, just wondered whether or not you'd call that torture. I'm not busy comparing it to decapitations...simply trying to understand what's torture and what's not. The moral equivalency portion of the conversation isn't really helpful...or relevant for that matter.

I'd call it torture but I called my marriage torture as well.

Antitrust32 · #14 04-20-2009, 02:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by brianwspencer

So I can count on you, next time an American is captured by an enemy, to stand tall with his captors in pointing out that it wasn't torture when they put him in a dark box for days on end with just enough air to breathe, then kept awake for 9 days in a row, waterboarded him repeatedly in between which they repeatedly smashed his head against wooden walls, while putting him in positions that wreck his body and muscles, if that were to happen for years at a time?

Yea, I'll see that day.

I will start this by pointing out that I am not compassionate when it comes to terrorists... and I dont give a darn about torture.. and I may not be completely rational when it comes to this topic, nor does my stance go with any party's way of thinking.

I would have just killed the guy and saved the time and money.

And the next time an American is captured by the enemy, that American will most likely be be-headed on camera and posted on the internet. And the enemy will do that again and again whether we torture their prisoners or treat them like Bernie Madoff (who I think should be tortured also). By the way, I am also for cutting rapists dicks off...

What I am against is releasing memo's that could cause more hatred of Americans.

brianwspencer · #15 04-20-2009, 02:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dellinger63

I'd call it torture but I called my marriage torture as well.

Well, that surprises me based on the company you keep in most of these issues, marriage included.

dellinger63 · #16 04-20-2009, 02:30 PM

I'd also much prefer being contorted and put in a box w/little air than being hung from a bridge set on fire but call me crazy

brianwspencer · #17 04-20-2009, 02:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Antitrust32

I will start this by pointing out that I am not compassionate when it comes to terrorists... and I dont give a darn about torture.. and I may not be completely rational when it comes to this topic, nor does my stance go with any party's way of thinking.

I would have just killed the guy and saved the time and money.

And the next time an American is captured by the enemy, that American will most likely be be-headed on camera and posted on the internet. And the enemy will do that again and again whether we torture their prisoners or treat them like Bernie Madoff (who I think should be tortured also). By the way, I am also for cutting rapists dicks off...

What I am against is releasing memo's that could cause more hatred of Americans.

1.) Well if it happens, I'll ask you then.

2.) What I'm against, is having to even HAVE memos in the first place trying to excuse OUR torture. If we're supposed to be the beacon of hope and moral good in the world, we shouldn't be torturing in the first place. No matter how much you hate someone or how many dicks you want to collect from them...that's what there is to be against. Releasing these memos isn't what causes hatred of Americans. Torturing people does...one just finally admits what everyone with half a brain knew...that we did the other.

dellinger63 · #18 04-20-2009, 02:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by brianwspencer

Well, that surprises me based on the company you keep in most of these issues, marriage included.

I make a better boyfriend than husband I guess or maybe prefer a girlfriend to a wife? No teabagging though.

Antitrust32 · #19 04-20-2009, 02:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by brianwspencer

I wasn't really asking for moral judgment, just wondered whether or not you'd call that torture. I'm not busy comparing it to decapitations...simply trying to understand what's torture and what's not. The moral equivalency portion of the conversation isn't really helpful...or relevant for that matter.

Fine I'll admit if thats what you want... it WAS torture.. and it doesnt bother me one bit! But I'm a crazy bitch like that!

And if I was in that situation that you posted before... I wouldnt waste time trying to tell them one thing or another... I'd be trying to put bullets in everyone's head.

brianwspencer · #20 04-20-2009, 02:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dellinger63

I'd also much prefer being contorted and put in a box w/little air than being hung from a bridge set on fire but call me crazy

Who wouldn't.

But again, I don't care about the comparisons. I get that a great deal of these terrorists (or people we assume are terrorists, since we're not even sure because we haven't charged more than about 5 of them) are incredibly unsavory people and probably deserve worse.

It's a matter of principle. Do we torture or do we not? And if that's torture, I don't care if that person would cut your head off given the chance, it's still torture and we should be better than that, no?