WI Union-busting provisions added in budget committee

[Riot]

Originally Posted by dellinger63

and you presume the police were left out of the bill

No, I don't. What I said has nothing at all to do with the bill. Zero. Can't you follow the thread?

[Riot]

Yeah, this is really nice. What a bunch of complete effing losers these three are - and the guy in the wheelchair was a former elected state Republican official. Intolerant, hate-filled idiots - like the idiots following Rand Paul who threw to the ground and attacked the girl holding the sign they didn't like.

Plenty of Facebook accounts of this attack, and video out there on internet

Protester punched in the face at daily Capitol singalong
http://host.madison.com/wsj/news/loc...cc4c03286.html

Among them, Reeder said, was former Republican state Sen. Dave Zien of Eau Claire, who was yelling and running over singers' belongings in the wheelchair he now uses following a motorcycle accident.

A participant in the daily, non-violent Solidarity Sing Along at the state Capitol suffered a broken tooth when he was punched in the face by one of two men who were draping a "Don't Tread on Me" flag over the heads of singers, the leader of the sing-along said.

Henry C. Rahr of Green Bay was arrested on a tentative charge of battery, and another man holding the flag, Eugene C. German, of Shorewood, Minn., also was cited for disorderly conduct, Vigue said.

[Riot]

Originally Posted by dellinger63

In America everyone should be equally accountable for their own insurnace whatever the market dictates. To force someone to pay is a sin

No, paying your taxes is not a "sin". We as a country choosing to take care of each other is not a "sin" in the least. You think that's a sin?

You want be a member of this society, that is the price of admission you choose if you want to be an American and live in this country. You don't like this country, move elsewhere. You want to stay here, you have your say like every other citizen does. You don't like something the majority, as a democratic republic, decides to do, tough luck. Get over it or move out.

[dellinger63]

Originally Posted by Riot

No, paying your taxes is not a "sin". We as a country choosing to take care of each other is not a "sin" in the least. You think that's a sin?

You want be a member of this society, that is the price of admission you choose if you want to be an American and live in this country. You don't like this country, move elsewhere. You want to stay here, you have your say like every other citizen does. You don't like something the majority, as a democratic republic, decides to do, tough luck. Get over it or move out.

No paying taxes is not a sin. America needs an Armed Forces, a Judicial System / Prison System and about the tenth of oversight committees it currently has. What the government does not need any business in is healthcare, retirement planning and unemployment. All should be handled privately on an individual basis, with private insurance either paid by the individual, employer or a combo of both.

You want someone to pay to subsidize your healthcare? Move to Canada. BTW the majority wants Obamacare repealed so I can't understand your arguement and it is no longer current? Get over it or move north.

[Riot]

Originally Posted by dellinger63

What the government does not need any business in is healthcare, retirement planning and unemployment. All should be handled privately on an individual basis, with private insurance either paid by the individual, employer or a combo of both.

LOL - we, the government, started those programs: retirement safety net, unemployment insurance, healthcare reform - because the private systems were woefully inadequate and American citizens were suffering

BTW the majority wants Obamacare repealed ....

Nonsense. False. The majority think the few provisions in the insurance reform were inadequate, too little, and want more - including single payer.

Watch this (the whole thing): you agree with Rand Paul, I'd imagine http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wYgVglm2xFY

[dellinger63]

Originally Posted by Riot

Nonsense. False. The majority think the few provisions in the insurance reform were inadequate, too little, and want more - including single payer.]

Just in case you want to cite something other than your imagination.

Forty four percent of voters believe the health reform law should be repealed compared with 38 percent who do not, demonstrating a persisting thumbs down for Obamacare even after its initial measures – like guaranteeing insurance for those with pre-existing conditions and keeping young adults on their parents policies – have been rolled out.

http://www.whitehousedossier.com/201...care-repealed/

Voters continue to support repeal of the national health care law and feel the new law will be bad for the country.

A new Rasmussen Reports national telephone survey finds that 53% of Likely Voters at least somewhat favor repeal of the health care law, while 42% at least somewhat oppose it. Those figures include 38% who Strongly Favor repeal and 27% who are Strongly Opposed. (To see survey question wording, click here.)

Support for repeal shows little change from a week ago. Most voters have supported repeal every week but one since Congress passed the law in March of last year, with that support running as high as 63%.

http://www.rasmussenreports.com/publ...ealth_care_law

So deal with it

[Riot]

Originally Posted by dellinger63

So deal with it

It's not going to be repealed. It's the law. It's already in effect. So you deal with it

[wiphan]

Originally Posted by Riot

It's not going to be repealed. It's the law. It's already in effect. So you deal with it

I thought you said the majority of americans didn't want Obamacare repealed? You believed that what Dell said was nonsense or false. Obviously he supported that with facts. There will be 800,000+ jobs lost if Obamacare goes into effect. That should help improve the economy.

[Riot]

Originally Posted by wiphan

I thought you said the majority of americans didn't want Obamacare repealed? You believed that what Dell said was nonsense or false. Obviously he supported that with facts.

If you look at the polls from January 2011 (Rassmussen, even), it's completely opposite. If you look at the poller, it changes with the way the question is asked. When you ask people if they want more (single payer) it's yes.

There will be 800,000+ jobs lost if Obamacare goes into effect. That should help improve the economy.

And your reference for that weirdness is? And btw, "Obamacare" is already in effect. It is in effect now, and has been for some time.

[wiphan]

Originally Posted by Riot

If you look at the polls from January 2011 (Rassmussen, even), it's completely opposite. If you look at the poller, it changes with the way the question is asked. When you ask people if they want more (single payer) it's yes.



And your reference for that weirdness is? And btw, "Obamacare" is already in effect. It is in effect now, and has been for some time.

Most provisions do not go into effect until 2014

[Riot]

Originally Posted by wiphan

Most provisions do not go into effect until 2014

What part of getting 30 million people better insurance and healthcare access is going to lose " 800,000+ " jobs?

[wiphan]

Originally Posted by Riot

What part of getting 30 million people better insurance and healthcare access is going to lose " 800,000+ " jobs?

What do you think is going to happen to all the people employed in the insurance industry? Estimates are that a minimum of 800,000 will lose their jobs if all the provisions go into effect by 2014. The insurance will not be better for most of us that already have decent insurance. The only reason you believe that is you are self employed and have to pay your own insurance. Having the government involved with something like your health is not a good thing. Have you ever dealt with a realtive on Medicare? The patients health is not what matters most

[Riot]

Originally Posted by wiphan

What do you think is going to happen to all the people employed in the insurance industry? Estimates are that a minimum of 800,000 will lose their jobs if all the provisions go into effect by 2014.

Um, no. There is no estimate whatsoever that "the insurance industry" will lose 800,000 jobs.

What was actually said, in the Congressional hearing that puts out the number you are quoting, where the CBO director spoke, was that 800,000 people, over the next 10 years, will no longer have to work just to afford their insurance, and that they may choose to not continue working.

http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0211/49273.html
By J. LESTER FEDER & KATE NOCERA 2/10/11

CBO Director Douglas Elmendorf told the House Budget Committee on Thursday that the health care law will reduce employment by 0.5 percent by 2021 because some people will no longer have to work just to afford health insurance.

“That means that if the reduction in the labor used was workers working the average number of hours in the economy and earning the average wage, that there would be a reduction of 800,000 workers,” Elmendorf said in an exchange with Rep. John Campbell (R-CA).

The report, published in August, said, "The Congressional Budget Office estimates that the legislation, on net, will reduce the amount of labor used in the economy by a small amount—roughly half a percent—primarily by reducing the amount of labor that workers choose to supply … That net effect reflects changes in incentives in the labor market that operate in both directions: Some provisions of the legislation will discourage people from working more hours or entering the workforce, and other provisions will encourage them to work more.”

It should also be noted that 800,000 no longer having to work just to afford insurance means ... insurance will cost less for them. A good thing.

The insurance will not be better for most of us that already have decent insurance.

Most people won't experience a change in their insurance, but all will and already have experienced benefits. It is already better for everyone who is insured, as your insurance company will no longer be able to rescind you. You also no longer have a lifetime cap.

Two good things that affects everyone in a positive way.

The only reason you believe that is you are self employed and have to pay your own insurance.

The benefits of the PPACA affect everyone, whether they are in a group at work or a group of self-employed. Nearly all the PPACA are simply consumer protections from private insurance companies. No "government takeover of health care".

Having the government involved with something like your health is not a good thing.

They do a pretty damn good job with Medicare. So good, that I think Medicare should be offered to everyone.

Have you ever dealt with a realtive on Medicare? The patients health is not what matters most

Yes, I do (both my parents) and those hoops are no different than what private insurance companies require - they are just specific to Medicare.
Another good thing from the PPACA is that it closes the donut hole for them. A big benefit.

[nebrady]

Check it out obama approval dropping. Maybe us will wake up and this spending to solve everything will end it doesn't work! As for the incident in capital its sad but isn't time for these protesters to go home! Wisconsin is fine and fact great! We have a governor willing to fix a budget thats been broken for a long time. Why don't yu come up riot go to summerfest next week and see for yourself. Protesters go to riots house she can listen to you sing! lol

[Riot]

Originally Posted by nebrady

Check it out obama approval dropping. Maybe us will wake up and this spending to solve everything will end it doesn't work! As for the incident in capital its sad but isn't time for these protesters to go home! Wisconsin is fine and fact great! We have a governor willing to fix a budget thats been broken for a long time. Why don't yu come up riot go to summerfest next week and see for yourself. Protesters go to riots house she can listen to you sing! lol

Here's a Politifact story about how Walker's budget increases your taxes over the next few years:

http://www.politifact.com/wisconsin/...tax-increases/

[wiphan]

Originally Posted by Riot

Um, no. There is no estimate whatsoever that "the insurance industry" will lose 800,000 jobs.

What was actually said, in the Congressional hearing that puts out the number you are quoting, where the CBO director spoke, was that 800,000 people, over the next 10 years, will no longer have to work just to afford their insurance, and that they may choose to not continue working.


No that is not what I said. The insurance companies will see a substantial loss of employment period

It should also be noted that 800,000 no longer having to work just to afford insurance means ... insurance will cost less for them. A good thing.



Most people won't experience a change in their insurance, but all will and already have experienced benefits. It is already better for everyone who is insured, as your insurance company will no longer be able to rescind you. You also no longer have a lifetime cap.

Two good things that affects everyone in a positive way.


[b]Who is going to pay for these benefits. Yes they both sound great I agree but someone is going to foot the [b]

The benefits of the PPACA affect everyone, whether they are in a group at work or a group of self-employed. Nearly all the PPACA are simply consumer protections from private insurance companies. No "government takeover of health care".



They do a pretty damn good job with Medicare. So good, that I think Medicare should be offered to everyone.


Yes, I do (both my parents) and those hoops are no different than what private insurance companies require - they are just specific to Medicare.
Another good thing from the PPACA is that it closes the donut hole for them. A big benefit.

I agree with the donut hole thing, but Medicare is not better than my current insurance and definitely has some major issues

[Riot]

Originally Posted by wiphan

I agree with the donut hole thing, but Medicare is not better than my current insurance and definitely has some major issues

Medicare is worse than some, and better than some, private insurance policies. The point, and the reason it exists, is that it insures people (old, sick) that no private insurance company would. Medicare was created for a reason - and that reason (old sick people need insurance and private companies won't insure them) hasn't disappeared and will not.

I think buying into Medicare should be offered to any and all Americans. Don't declare a single payer, let the market decide.

Let private insurance companies compete with that offered plan, at that price.

That probably would lose thousands of insurance company jobs (which is why we don't have single payer in this country - the insurance company lobby)

PPACA is helping people that are not insured now. Why people who are insured hate that is beyond me - because we are currently paying, through our insurance and medical costs, for those uninsured now. I'd much rather they have insurance, get better medical care because they can afford it, and stop only being seen in crisis mode (expensive for us).

And the consumer protections for us who are insured are a good thing - not something to dislike. That's crazy!

No that is not what I said. The insurance companies will see a substantial loss of employment period

How will the insurance companies will see a loss of employment? 30 million more people will now be insured by them (it's estimated 18 million additional have already been ensured) The private insurance companies certainly won't lose business, they are gaining it.

You'll notice the day the PPACA passed, insurance stocks went up - not down.

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by Riot

Yeah, this is really nice. What a bunch of complete effing losers these three are - and the guy in the wheelchair was a former elected state Republican official. Intolerant, hate-filled idiots - like the idiots following Rand Paul who threw to the ground and attacked the girl holding the sign they didn't like.

Plenty of Facebook accounts of this attack, and video out there on internet

LOL

Yeah Unions are known for their peaceful tactics too

The guy ran over their "things" in his wheelchair?
Did he have some sort of monster truck wheels installed?
Are we sure this wasn't Roger after a few too many drinks?

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by Riot

No, paying your taxes is not a "sin". We as a country choosing to take care of each other is not a "sin" in the least. You think that's a sin?

You want be a member of this society, that is the price of admission you choose if you want to be an American and live in this country. You don't like this country, move elsewhere. You want to stay here, you have your say like every other citizen does. You don't like something the majority, as a democratic republic, decides to do, tough luck. Get over it or move out.

I dont remember choosing to "take care of each other"?

I wasn't aware that this was put to a vote of the people of America. I seem to remember it as being done by politicians.

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by Riot

If you look at the polls from January 2011 (Rassmussen, even), it's completely opposite. If you look at the poller, it changes with the way the question is asked. When you ask people if they want more (single payer) it's yes.



And your reference for that weirdness is? And btw, "Obamacare" is already in effect. It is in effect now, and has been for some time.

Was awfully hot today for January