Ted Haggard

[timmgirvan]

Originally Posted by Downthestretch55

Timm,
As you know, I've spent a good portion of my life trying to "educate" children.
Some of my toughest ones have been from completely dysfuntional families.
Small triumphs, some failures. Every victory is a winner to me.
Whether those home settings were the cause or the effect of something from a higher societal level is difficult for me to determine.
IMHO, one won't be fixed without fixing other, maybe simultaneously.
Where to start? Your guess is probably as good as mine.
The key is that consistancy must exist at all levels.

DTS: In a perfect world we could expect to achieve this,but we live in a fallen world. We must have moral standards to get us through the times that test our character,while still attempting to take care of family.

[Downthestretch55]

Originally Posted by timmgirvan

DTS: In a perfect world we could expect to achieve this,but we live in a fallen world. We must have moral standards to get us through the times that test our character,while still attempting to take care of family.

Timm,
As you well know, I'm no quitter.
If it's a "fallen world" that needs fixing, just do your best, as will I, to make it better in a way that is consistant with your "moral" view on what is right.
What other purpose for our mutual existances could be better?
DTS

ps...sometimes I attempt to do it with "humor"...thanks for tolerating that.

[Danzig]

Originally Posted by timmgirvan

DTS: In a perfect world we could expect to achieve this,but we live in a fallen world. We must have moral standards to get us through the times that test our character,while still attempting to take care of family.

i wasn't suggesting in any way that there should be no moral standards--the problem comes in when the govt tries to enforce their idea of morals...i raise my kids to do right, to know right from wrong, and to treat others with dignity and respect, as well as to have self-respect and exert self-control.

[timmgirvan]

Originally Posted by Downthestretch55

Timm,
As you well know, I'm no quitter.
If it's a "fallen world" that needs fixing, just do your best, as will I, to make it better in a way that is consistant with your "moral" view on what is right.
What other purpose for our mutual existances could be better?
DTS

ps...sometimes I attempt to do it with "humor"...thanks for tolerating that.

None higher! as my signature attests! Yeah...you're funny,err,mostly!

[GenuineRisk]

Originally Posted by timmgirvan

I can see that the problems are becoming clearer to you also. And yet the school system proposes to give 11-12 yr old girls a shot to lessen the chance of STD's or pregnancy. Doesn't that sound like they are subliminally promoting a lifestyle?

Timm, the shot to which you are referring is to help prevent cervical cancer, which can result from genital warts. You're saying better to promote morality by keeping a cancer vaccine from women? "Don't have sex, girls! You might get cancer!" Dear God.

I think schools should give kids complete, thorough sex ed (and the HPV vaccine, while they're at it) because it's a health issue. Condoms are a matter of public health, as are contraceptives of all kinds (kids need to know the pill prevents pregnancy, not VD, for one). It's up to the parents to talk to their kids about the moral ramifications of sex, and they should. But it's not the government's place to teach "morality" by concealing information. Kids should not be denied a life-saving shot or clinical information. It's not going to encourage promiscuity; it's going to encourage teenagers who are going to have sex anyway to use protection. About half of all kids who make abstinence pledges break them within a year, and the majority of those kids don't use any sort of birth control, because they already believe they're doing something "bad" so why be intelligent about it?

Plus, once they are out in the world, how are we again going to have the same opportunity to educate young Americans about their own bodies? How much sex ed did you get in a classroom setting once you were out of high school? (Sorry, in the field experience doesn't count, unless you were sleeping with your sex ed teacher) I got a grand total of 15 minutes-- freshman year of college, a teacher's aide came into Writing Workshop I and showed us how to put on a condom. And that was because I went to college. Where again are we going to be able to educate people about what is, all said and done, a health issue?

HPV vaccines and comprehensive sex ed for all public school students, say I. And then the kids can go home and talk to their parents about what they learned. Now there's a concept... parents talking to their kids about sex...

[Cajungator26]

Originally Posted by GenuineRisk

Timm, the shot to which you are referring is to help prevent cervical cancer, which can result from genital warts. You're saying better to promote morality by keeping a cancer vaccine from women? "Don't have sex, girls! You might get cancer!" Dear God.

I think schools should give kids complete, thorough sex ed (and the HPV vaccine, while they're at it) because it's a health issue. Condoms are a matter of public health, as are contraceptives of all kinds (kids need to know the pill prevents pregnancy, not VD, for one). It's up to the parents to talk to their kids about the moral ramifications of sex, and they should. But it's not the government's place to teach "morality" by concealing information. Kids should not be denied a life-saving shot or clinical information. It's not going to encourage promiscuity; it's going to encourage teenagers who are going to have sex anyway to use protection. About half of all kids who make abstinence pledges break them within a year, and the majority of those kids don't use any sort of birth control, because they already believe they're doing something "bad" so why be intelligent about it?

Plus, once they are out in the world, how are we again going to have the same opportunity to educate young Americans about their own bodies? How much sex ed did you get in a classroom setting once you were out of high school? (Sorry, in the field experience doesn't count, unless you were sleeping with your sex ed teacher) I got a grand total of 15 minutes-- freshman year of college, a teacher's aide came into Writing Workshop I and showed us how to put on a condom. And that was because I went to college. Where again are we going to be able to educate people about what is, all said and done, a health issue?

HPV vaccines and comprehensive sex ed for all public school students, say I. And then the kids can go home and talk to their parents about what they learned. Now there's a concept... parents talking to their kids about sex...

What about the kids who aren't doing that? What does that teach them? That it's "ok" to engage in sexual interaction at such a young age? I agree with you on this being a parent issue. Parents aren't talking to their kids...

For the record, we learned about the "birds and the bees" in elementary school. All kids should be taught about it... it's life.

[Downthestretch55]

Originally Posted by Cajungator26

What about the kids who aren't doing that? What does that teach them? That it's "ok" to engage in sexual interaction at such a young age? I agree with you on this being a parent issue. Parents aren't talking to their kids...

For the record, we learned about the "birds and the bees" in elementary school. All kids should be taught about it... it's life.

If the parents don't teach them, Mark Foley will.
No condoms needed.

[timmgirvan]

GR: A friend of mines' sister had surgery for cervical cancer at the age of 20! This was brought on by a very active sexual lifestyle(I'm not makin this up). I don't know all about STD's or Warts. I wouldn't want young girls to get them, but I draw the line at the people routinely making these kinds of decisions for our kids. I believe that these plans Do give implicit consent for young people to feel free to experience/experiment with things they're not ready for physically or emotionally. But I will read up on this and add to this thread if I find anything interesting! P.S. I checked on WebMD and genital warts are considered an STD,passed on by sexual activity. So when you have the warts, if they're not treated, then they can become potentially cancerous. It did not mention what percentage of girls/women would be at risk(for the warts to become cancerous) So...the whole 11 year old girls having sex thing? Why would we even be having this issue if Parents(not the school system) dealt with 1)the 'birds/bees' and 2)Authorities and school system taught this as a prerequisite for graduation from(I'll give you a break)8th grade. No one is concealing any info, and by the way, all the stuff you need to know is in BOOKS. I went to private school, so I read books. In the 60's, nobody was forthcoming about sex....there's nothing 'prurient' about biology! Routine exams for young girls would be common sense, not giving them a shot or a pill so that "they can all they can be"!

[GenuineRisk]

Originally Posted by timmgirvan

GR: A friend of mines' sister had surgery for cervical cancer at the age of 20! This was brought on by a very active sexual lifestyle(I'm not makin this up). I don't know all about STD's or Warts. I wouldn't want young girls to get them, but I draw the line at the people routinely making these kinds of decisions for our kids. I believe that these plans Do give implicit consent for young people to feel free to experience/experiment with things they're not ready for physically or emotionally. But I will read up on this and add to this thread if I find anything interesting! P.S. I checked on WebMD and genital warts are considered an STD,passed on by sexual activity. So when you have the warts, if they're not treated, then they can become potentially cancerous. It did not mention what percentage of girls/women would be at risk(for the warts to become cancerous) So...the whole 11 year old girls having sex thing? Why would we even be having this issue if Parents(not the school system) dealt with 1)the 'birds/bees' and 2)Authorities and school system taught this as a prerequisite for graduation from(I'll give you a break)8th grade. No one is concealing any info, and by the way, all the stuff you need to know is in BOOKS. I went to private school, so I read books. In the 60's, nobody was forthcoming about sex....there's nothing 'prurient' about biology! Routine exams for young girls would be common sense, not giving thema shot or a pill so that "they can all they can be"!

But Timm, NOT giving them a shot that would protect them against cervical cancer caused by genital warts is using a fear tactic. Which is morally reprehensible, as far as I'm concerned. And since your 20-year-old acquaintance still had the surgery, it clearly didn't work in her case- the fear tactic, that is. So are you glad she had cancer surgery because that taught her a lesson?

Timm, you also went to school some time ago-- have you checked into Bush's abstinence only sex ed recently? And have you checked the success rates on it? Google and you'll find some interesting stuff on what a colossal waste of money it's been. Kids aren't getting the sex ed you and I got.

Speaking as a woman who was going to the gyno long before I had sex (my mom died of breast cancer when she was 35 so my dad started sending me to the gyno at age 13), cervical exams are fracking painful if you still have a hymen (I still remember my first exam after I'd become sexually active and it was a truly beautiful moment not to leave the office in tears from the pain). It's pretty abusive to suggest giving girls routine cervical exams rather than a shot, don't you think?

Timm, one still has to contend with, oh, herpes, AIDS, chlamydia, gonorreha, crabs, etc. if one has unprotected sex. And of course, the big P. (pregnancy) To say giving girls a shot that might save their lives due to one virus will promote promiscuity is a wee bit extremist, don't you think?

If the vaccine is offered to your kids' kids, will you tell your kids not to let their daughters get it?

You also, I assume from your line about drawing the line about other people making these kinds of decisions for kids, are opposed to measles, mumps, rubella and tetanus vaccinations? Kids are required to get those to go to school. Did you kids get them?

Speaking as someone who saw her mom die of cancer, it sucks. Anything as simple as a vaccine for at least one kind of cancer is a good thing and should be available to all girls. Period.

[Cajungator26]

Originally Posted by GenuineRisk

But Timm, NOT giving them a shot that would protect them against cervical cancer caused by genital warts is using a fear tactic. Which is morally reprehensible, as far as I'm concerned. And since your 20-year-old acquaintance still had the surgery, it clearly didn't work in her case- the fear tactic, that is. So are you glad she had cancer surgery because that taught her a lesson?

Timm, you also went to school some time ago-- have you checked into Bush's abstinence only sex ed recently? And have you checked the success rates on it? Google and you'll find some interesting stuff on what a colossal waste of money it's been. Kids aren't getting the sex ed you and I got.

Speaking as a woman who was going to the gyno long before I had sex (my mom died of breast cancer when she was 35 so my dad started sending me to the gyno at age 13), cervical exams are fracking painful if you still have a hymen (I still remember my first exam after I'd become sexually active and it was a truly beautiful moment not to leave the office in tears from the pain). It's pretty abusive to suggest giving girls routine cervical exams rather than a shot, don't you think?

Timm, one still has to contend with, oh, herpes, AIDS, chlamydia, gonorreha, crabs, etc. if one has unprotected sex. And of course, the big P. (pregnancy) To say giving girls a shot that might save their lives due to one virus will promote promiscuity is a wee bit extremist, don't you think?

If the vaccine is offered to your kids' kids, will you tell your kids not to let their daughters get it?

You also, I assume from your line about drawing the line about other people making these kinds of decisions for kids, are opposed to measles, mumps, rubella and tetanus vaccinations? Kids are required to get those to go to school. Did you kids get them?

Speaking as someone who saw her mom die of cancer, it sucks. Anything as simple as a vaccine for at least one kind of cancer is a good thing and should be available to all girls. Period.

Genuine, I'm so sorry to hear about your Mom.

Everyone on the female side of my family (mom excluded, thank God) has died of cancer. I too have been seeing the gyno since a young age, and you're right, it stinks.

[GenuineRisk]

Originally Posted by Cajungator26

Genuine, I'm so sorry to hear about your Mom.

Everyone on the female side of my family (mom excluded, thank God) has died of cancer. I too have been seeing the gyno since a young age, and you're right, it stinks.

I'm sorry about your family medical history, too! Ugh. My mom was the only one on that side to die of breast cancer, but my grandfather died the year after she died and my grandmother the year after that. As awful as it was for me, as an adult I feel worst for my aunt, my mom's sister, who lost her entire immediate family in three years. She never married, so she has no immediate family of her own. Fortunately, my dad's side of the family scooped her right up and she spends holidays, etc., with my dad and stepmom and my dad's sister and brother's families. She sat with the family at my paternal grandfather's funeral, too-- I think most of my dad's side have forgotten she's not from their side to begin with.

[Cajungator26]

Originally Posted by GenuineRisk

I'm sorry about your family medical history, too! Ugh. My mom was the only one on that side to die of breast cancer, but my grandfather died the year after she died and my grandmother the year after that. As awful as it was for me, as an adult I feel worst for my aunt, my mom's sister, who lost her entire immediate family in three years. She never married, so she has no immediate family of her own. Fortunately, my dad's side of the family scooped her right up and she spends holidays, etc., with my dad and stepmom and my dad's sister and brother's families. She sat with the family at my paternal grandfather's funeral, too-- I think most of my dad's side have forgotten she's not from their side to begin with.

Family is so important... I think that in this day and age, Americans across the board (in all parties) tend to forget that family is what it's all about. I'm sorry to hear about the deaths in your family. I miss my grandparents... I've got none left and I wish I would have spent more time with them as a kid.

[timmgirvan]

Originally Posted by GenuineRisk

But Timm, NOT giving them a shot that would protect them against cervical cancer caused by genital warts is using a fear tactic. Which is morally reprehensible, as far as I'm concerned. And since your 20-year-old acquaintance still had the surgery, it clearly didn't work in her case- the fear tactic, that is. So are you glad she had cancer surgery because that taught her a lesson?

Timm, you also went to school some time ago-- have you checked into Bush's abstinence only sex ed recently? And have you checked the success rates on it? Google and you'll find some interesting stuff on what a colossal waste of money it's been. Kids aren't getting the sex ed you and I got.

Speaking as a woman who was going to the gyno long before I had sex (my mom died of breast cancer when she was 35 so my dad started sending me to the gyno at age 13), cervical exams are fracking painful if you still have a hymen (I still remember my first exam after I'd become sexually active and it was a truly beautiful moment not to leave the office in tears from the pain). It's pretty abusive to suggest giving girls routine cervical exams rather than a shot, don't you think?

Timm, one still has to contend with, oh, herpes, AIDS, chlamydia, gonorreha, crabs, etc. if one has unprotected sex. And of course, the big P. (pregnancy) To say giving girls a shot that might save their lives due to one virus will promote promiscuity is a wee bit extremist, don't you think?

If the vaccine is offered to your kids' kids, will you tell your kids not to let their daughters get it?

You also, I assume from your line about drawing the line about other people making these kinds of decisions for kids, are opposed to measles, mumps, rubella and tetanus vaccinations? Kids are required to get those to go to school. Did you kids get them?

Speaking as someone who saw her mom die of cancer, it sucks. Anything as simple as a vaccine for at least one kind of cancer is a good thing and should be available to all girls. Period.

GR: Boy,give you a nickel and.... Seriously though,this girls' surgery was 20yrs ago and it was a big dark secret(her parents were Christian Science) Having one go through surgery to teach a lesson is Draconian! But I dont see this as fear tactic. The preponderance of drugs(ill and legal)is overwhelming, and as we're finding out,some of these drugs don't live up to the hype. I'm all for the regular shots and immunization,but giving a shot to a girl who may or may not become sexually active as a stopgap to possibly treating a cancerous wart is bad medicine,as far as I'm concerned! As far as STD's...I'm so glad I'm out of the dating pool(some stats say 25-30% of women have some type of communicable disease) My Mom died from lung cancer when I was 37,brother 3yrs ago-heart,Dad 2yr ago-reckless driver...so I'm pretty well acquainted with the process. As far as gyno exams, I know from my wifes' history,it pays to have a gentle Doctor who warms the instruments, and still its' not one of her faves to schedule. My daughter is 29 and I've been worried that she has never been to gyno...I'd rather deal with it than have it sneak up on us. That's my story..and I'm stickin to it! Best Timm