russia

[Antitrust32]

http://www.cnn.com/2007/WORLD/europe...les/index.html

what is going on here? last thing this planet needs is another cold war.

[somerfrost]

Originally Posted by Antitrust32

http://www.cnn.com/2007/WORLD/europe...les/index.html

what is going on here? last thing this planet needs is another cold war.

I agree with most of what this great man said but Iran must NEVER get nukes! We need statesmen not political hacks in the White House...the world must work together on the issues of Iran, North Korea and terrorism...but if all else fails, Iran must be stopped by whatever means are necessary!

[Downthestretch55]

Originally Posted by Antitrust32

http://www.cnn.com/2007/WORLD/europe...les/index.html

what is going on here? last thing this planet needs is another cold war.

Interesting article.
Gorbachov recently spoke against "American Empire". Google it.
It seems to me that Putin is seeing the end of his tenure, as is GWB.
The perception is that the anti-missile system is directed against Russia, not Iran (that doesn't have delivery systems currently) as Bush claims.
Putin's move is to attempt to drive a wedge between the US and the "old" NATO allies in Europe.
Bush really doesn't need to push his agenda at this point in time.
Suffice it to say, he's been wrong before. Perhaps he will continue to be until his term is completed.
Here's something to consider. What would be the US reaction if a country like China installed an anti missile system in its doorstep, like Cuba?

[Downthestretch55]

Here's a link to the BBC interview. Also, click on the right side to read Putin's warning to Europe.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/6717037.stm

[somerfrost]

Originally Posted by Downthestretch55

Interesting article.
Gorbachov recently spoke against "American Empire". Google it.
It seems to me that Putin is seeing the end of his tenure, as is GWB.
The perception is that the anti-missile system is directed against Russia, not Iran (that doesn't have delivery systems currently) as Bush claims.
Putin's move is to attempt to drive a wedge between the US and the "old" NATO allies in Europe.
Bush really doesn't need to push his agenda at this point in time.
Suffice it to say, he's been wrong before. Perhaps he will continue to be until his term is completed.
Here's something to consider. What would be the US reaction if a country like China installed an anti missile system in its doorstep, like Cuba?

Well, we know what Kennedy's reaction was to missiles in Cuba...I agree that this is not something we need to be involved with right now, if Europe wants a defense system they can build their own or use the French method (run like hell at the first sign of trouble)!

[Danzig]

Originally Posted by Antitrust32

http://www.cnn.com/2007/WORLD/europe...les/index.html

what is going on here? last thing this planet needs is another cold war.

would help on that whole global warming thing tho.....

[hoovesupsideyourhead]

whithout sounding stupid ..i thnk that russia is trying to re live the past ..if we scare america about europe again the will re comit forces to the west..germany ect..keeping them away from the arabs .....

From the article:

Gorbachev said that Russian democracy is growing despite its problems. He noted that the courts don't work and some media outlets have made deals with the authorities. But there is now, he said, a relatively free press.

Russia is moving from a totalitarian regime to democracy, he said, but it is only halfway there.


This is a very optimistic view of Russia. I think its bull.

The press is having a very tough time. And Russia is moving back towards a totalitarian way. Democracy is a terribly difficult thing to achieve. We had some sense that it would just occur automatically. That Democracy is somehow the steady state that is inevitably reached. Well its clearly not.

The institutions must be in place, a country just cant say we want to be democratic. And given Russia's history, the cultural inclination is clearly set up for a very organized totalitarian state, rather than a democracy that cant keep the lights on and protect citizens from criminals. The fledging democracy was rife with scandal and people taking advantage of the government privatizing industries, etc... And the folks on the street get sick of having inequities right in front of their faces, rather than hidden behind the big wall of a government.

IMO, this country is heading in a diff. direction...The easier well worn path. Not the difficult fair path of democracy. And I thank you...

[timmgirvan]

It is bull! It doesn't look like the totalitarian folks are succeeding at "keeping the lights on and protecting the people" very well either!

[somerfrost]

Originally Posted by timmgirvan

It is bull! It doesn't look like the totalitarian folks are succeeding at "keeping the lights on and protecting the people" very well either!

They don't have to!

[timmgirvan]

Somer: then they should stop rattlin their sabres and get cracking on rebuilding Russia! Agreed?

Originally Posted by somerfrost

They don't have to!

Exactly. Thats why its easier. Fairness and basic human rights be damned.

You will live in the cold and you will like it commrade.

rather than...

Sorry we have been unable to provide service for your area at this time. We are a disorganized mess. Please call back later, sorry for the inconvience.

[dr. fager]

Pretty intersting counter proposal by Putin

"Putin told Bush he would not seek to retarget Russian missiles on Europe if the United States agreed to put the radar-based system in Azerbaijan, a former Soviet republic bordering the Caspian Sea."

Originally Posted by dr. fager

Pretty intersting counter proposal by Putin

"Putin told Bush he would not seek to retarget Russian missiles on Europe if the United States agreed to put the radar-based system in Azerbaijan, a former Soviet republic bordering the Caspian Sea."

It is an already existing system made by the former Soviet republic a while back. And Putin said in place of one in the Czech Rep. Nonetheless a step at reconciliation. Bush already gave Putin free reign to come in a check out the system with his people and they would use it together.

At least the rhetoric is toned down.

[SentToStud]

Originally Posted by pgardn

It is an already existing system made by the former Soviet republic a while back. And Putin said in place of one in the Czech Rep. Nonetheless a step at reconciliation. Bush already gave Putin free reign to come in a check out the system with his people and they would use it together.

At least the rhetoric is toned down.

One can only surmised our new talks with Iran are not going as well as they were last week.. Apparently the the potential vacancy in the axis of evil will not occur. All this sh*t is connected. And, of course, Poland gets used again.

[Downthestretch55]

Here's my "take" on how this little poker game played.
Bush dealt (sought to install anti missile system), then opened bet (stated that the system wasn't directed at Russia).
Putin threatened to bet (target Europe) but held cards.
Bush tried to have Putin put in.
Putin called bluff.
http://www.ft.com/cms/s/5cf1212e-151...b5df10621.html

Bush folds.

[SentToStud]

Originally Posted by Downthestretch55

Here's my "take" on how this little poker game played.
Bush dealt (sought to install anti missile system), then opened bet (stated that the system wasn't directed at Russia).
Putin threatened to bet (target Europe) but held cards.
Bush tried to have Putin put in.
Putin called bluff.
http://www.ft.com/cms/s/5cf1212e-151...b5df10621.html

Bush folds.

lol. And the role of the "house" is played by Haliburton. Taking a bit of skim off the whole thing.

Originally Posted by Downthestretch55

Here's my "take" on how this little poker game played.
Bush dealt (sought to install anti missile system), then opened bet (stated that the system wasn't directed at Russia).
Putin threatened to bet (target Europe) but held cards.
Bush tried to have Putin put in.
Putin called bluff.
http://www.ft.com/cms/s/5cf1212e-151...b5df10621.html

Bush folds.

The system cant be directed. It is an antimissle system which Russia does not like because it might limit their chances of striking back if they get hit first. And since it is "our" system, Russia has every right to ask why Europe does not build on its own.
So I think the real attempt is as stated. You dont want rogue states firing any type of missle, conventional or not, without the slightest bit of worry about a retaliatory strike as they will martyr the whole nation readily.
Israel takes this threat very seriously. Given that Iran has OPENLY stated they seek to destroy Israel... and we take the threat seriously because of alliances. We dont want to have to strike an entire nation of innocent people because of a heaven bent leader.
I dont see this as a joking matter. Israel is already back at it again in Gaza and the West Bank. Lebanon is now falling apart again, big suprise there.

[Downthestretch55]

Originally Posted by SentToStud

lol. And the role of the "house" is played by Haliburton. Taking a bit of skim off the whole thing.

S2S,
You might have something there.
Did you know that Russia is now the leading producer of oil? They passed the Saudis recently. Who do you think they're selling their oil to?
Think Europe.
Why would they seek to target the counties that are supporting their market?
Bush, as usual..playing aggressor-in-chief, again shows his ignorance.
Oh well. And so it goes.

Originally Posted by SentToStud

lol. And the role of the "house" is played by Haliburton. Taking a bit of skim off the whole thing.

So Bush has set the whole thing up for Haliburton to make money?
You know people have called me cynical, but you have the winning hand here.