Watch GAZA die

Hamas has gained the upper hand.
It does not look like Gaza will be a part of any Palestinian state. If Hamas sets up its own government, which looks very likely now, and they fire rockets into Israel...

You are going to see a lot of people die in the Gaza strip. The EU will cut off aide, the UN will have to, they just may have given the blessing for Israel to destroy this little territory that is now run by terrorists.

Islam Shahwan, a spokesman for the Hamas militia, told Hamas radio triumphantly: “The era of justice and Islamic rule have arrived.”



This is going to get very ugly. The path between Egypt and Gaza will get involved. Hamas is going to sacrifice this area and its people.

[Downthestretch55]

Originally Posted by pgardn

Hamas has gained the upper hand.
It does not look like Gaza will be a part of any Palestinian state. If Hamas sets up its own government, which looks very likely now, and they fire rockets into Israel...

You are going to see a lot of people die in the Gaza strip. The EU will cut off aide, the UN will have to, they just may have given the blessing for Israel to destroy this little territory that is now run by terrorists.

Islam Shahwan, a spokesman for the Hamas militia, told Hamas radio triumphantly: “The era of justice and Islamic rule have arrived.”



This is going to get very ugly. The path between Egypt and Gaza will get involved. Hamas is going to sacrifice this area and its people.

Pgardn,
Sadly, you may be entirely correct with your analysis.
I admit that I am not completely informed on recent developments.
I hesitate to post anything on "political" topics, and I'm hardly a fan of Hamas.
I also realize that I'll get a bashing from ****** and**** for posting a commondreams link, but I think Ira C might know a bit more than them.
http://www.commondreams.org/archive/2007/06/15/1897/

So....how come the US insists on backing leaders like Abbas, Marchos, the Shah, on and on...and so it goes. ???
Looks like Iran is the big winner in this one.
Is the US going to continue to play Israel's proxy?
I honestly don't know. I only know that a whole lot more people are going to die. It saddens me.
DTS

Originally Posted by Downthestretch55

Pgardn,
Sadly, you may be entirely correct with your analysis.
I admit that I am not completely informed on recent developments.
I hesitate to post anything on "political" topics, and I'm hardly a fan of Hamas.
I also realize that I'll get a bashing from ****** and**** for posting a commondreams link, but I think Ira C might know a bit more than them.
http://www.commondreams.org/archive/2007/06/15/1897/

So....how come the US insists on backing leaders like Abbas, Marchos, the Shah, on and on...and so it goes. ???
Looks like Iran is the big winner in this one.
Is the US going to continue to play Israel's proxy?
I honestly don't know. I only know that a whole lot more people are going to die. It saddens me.
DTS

Way too simplistic. People have been killing each other in the name of Muhammed long before we were even a nation... and in the name of Christ, and for money and goods. We back tyrants because they give a sense of stability. As did the Taliban in Afghanistan.

Add that this the fact that democracy is NOT the natural state of things. This is the one thing that is very hard to swallow for many people. The amount of latitude that individuals have in this country is a gift from heaven and seems to be a short-lived social structure. Thats how I see it.

Depressing, but I have read too much history. I'm sure someone has written a book on how tough it is to start a democracy and the rule of Law in today's world, or in any world. I dont think Im the first person to see this.

[Downthestretch55]

Originally Posted by pgardn

Way too simplistic. People have been killing each other in the name of Muhammed long before we were even a nation... and in the name of Christ, and for money and goods. We back tyrants because they give a sense of stability. As did the Taliban in Afghanistan.

Add that this the fact that democracy is NOT the natural state of things. This is the one thing that is very hard to swallow for many people. The amount of latitude that individuals have in this country is a gift from heaven and seems to be a short-lived social structure. Thats how I see it.

Depressing, but I have read too much history. I'm sure someone has written a book on how tough it is to start a democracy and the rule of Law in today's world, or in any world. I dont think Im the first person to see this.

Pgardn,
I'm not attempting to be simplistic.
Democracy is a worthy goal, but look at how well the US imposition of it is doing in Iraq, especially when we previously had a compliant tyrant named Saddam.
Mao said, "Power comes from the barrel of a gun."
Sadly, that's exactly what it's looking like to me.
Israel is now inside of Iran's box.
Where does that leave the US with all of the altrusistic dreams of establishing democracies in the Middle East? Hmmmm...and how many American military will pay with their lives before the "leaders" realize that fact?

Originally Posted by Downthestretch55

Pgardn,
I'm not attempting to be simplistic.
Democracy is a worthy goal, but look at how well the US imposition of it is doing in Iraq, especially when we previously had a compliant tyrant named Saddam.
Mao said, "Power comes from the barrel of a gun."
Sadly, that's exactly what it's looking like to me.
Israel is now inside of Iran's box.
Where does that leave the US with all of the altrusistic dreams of establishing democracies in the Middle East? Hmmmm...and how many American military will pay with their lives before the "leaders" realize that fact?

You are allowed to have the dreams. What "we" do is changed by people like you and I. We are the US DTS. So get yourself into a political office.

I listened to NPR the other day and they told this story about a middle Eastern ruler that would incarcerate(sp?) anyone who imagined he was dead.
"We" cant pawn this off on anyone but ourselves. No Reps this, Demo's that stuff.

[Downthestretch55]

Originally Posted by pgardn

You are allowed to have the dreams. What "we" do is changed by people like you and I. We are the US DTS. So get yourself into a political office.

I listened to NPR the other day and they told this story about a middle Eastern ruler that would incarcerate(sp?) anyone who imagined he was dead.
"We" cant pawn this off on anyone but ourselves. No Reps this, Demo's that stuff.

Pgardn,
You get no disagreement on this from me.
As an aside, I have previously served in a political office. No thanks!
I learned my lesson, and came out before I could be bought.
Yes, WE (US) all own what we've wrought. We bought it, we fund it, and we can't pawn it off on anyone but ourselves.
It's not a Rep or Dem issue.
though I wish one of those hadn't been so tough of the Dixie Chicks or France.

Originally Posted by Downthestretch55

Pgardn,
though I wish one of those hadn't been so tough of the Dixie Chicks or France.

Hindsight...

Move forward. I dont think the Dixie Chicks knew that 400,000 troops making sure the infrastructure of Iraq was taken care of would do the trick. In hindsight it was the appropriate action if we were totally committed to removing all WMD's AND securing the country. And WE voted to move in.

But WE could not tolerate that type of commitment. Another lesson learned could very well be: IF YOU WANT TO GET A JOB DONE, DONT DO IT HALF-AS SED. Some say it was a mistake in the first place, others say we did the job half way. Colin Powell thinks it was correct to go in, but we did not send nearly enough troops... So anything goes looking back.
France did not look very smart after WWI, WWII, Vietnam... so their history allows them to tell us we told you so? Does not make the country that gave us Napolean correct either.

[SentToStud]

I think the best current reporting on this is in the Jerusalem Post. Lots of great and balanced reporting and opinion pieces. You can get a real good sense of the politics involved. www.jpost.com. There's a fairly new book out by Dennis Ross named Statecraft. Ross was Middle East policy chief under Bush 1 and Clinton.

Originally Posted by SentToStud

I think the best current reporting on this is in the Jerusalem Post. Lots of great and balanced reporting and opinion pieces. You can get a real good sense of the politics involved. www.jpost.com. There's a fairly new book out by Dennis Ross named Statecraft. Ross was Middle East policy chief under Bush 1 and Clinton.

Thanks.
I needed a read. I think I will go get this. Can ya believe I get tired of reading Physics sometimes. Really, I do like books on the Middle East. From Beirut to Jerusalem was one of the first books that got me more interested, to try and figure it out, and I find I just get more confused. The more ya know, the less ya know ya know thing.

[magic_idol]

Originally Posted by pgardn

Hamas has gained the upper hand.
It does not look like Gaza will be a part of any Palestinian state. If Hamas sets up its own government, which looks very likely now, and they fire rockets into Israel...

You are going to see a lot of people die in the Gaza strip. The EU will cut off aide, the UN will have to, they just may have given the blessing for Israel to destroy this little territory that is now run by terrorists.

Islam Shahwan, a spokesman for the Hamas militia, told Hamas radio triumphantly: “The era of justice and Islamic rule have arrived.”



This is going to get very ugly. The path between Egypt and Gaza will get involved. Hamas is going to sacrifice this area and its people.

I Have to say i disagree with you, & While disagreeing i hope i dont get branded a Terrorist, Hamas was elected to govern & because of this Israel supplied the losing party whith weapons thus causing civil war So who is the terrorist ?
If you dont like the governing party do you just label them terrorists & apparently that gives you the right to destroy that country
Hmmm sounds abit like afganistan. Had to laugh the other day they were going to rip up a poppy field & all of a sudden they were fired on when asked who was shooting at them the government said taliban this is dispite the fact the tailiban were actually against drugs & it was more likely poor farmers who were seeing there crop destroyed.
It seems to me if we dont like a situation we just call them terroists or taliban.
Come to think of it im havin a argument with a bloke at the track i think he might be a terroist or taliban .
Just puttin my 2 cents worth in & if it offends you i am deeply sorry
& bury my nose back into my winning post lookin for a winner on Sat

Free The Sheeple

Originally Posted by magic_idol

I Have to say i disagree with you, & While disagreeing i hope i dont get branded a Terrorist, Hamas was elected to govern & because of this Israel supplied the losing party whith weapons thus causing civil war So who is the terrorist ?
If you dont like the governing party do you just label them terrorists & apparently that gives you the right to destroy that country
Hmmm sounds abit like afganistan. Had to laugh the other day they were going to rip up a poppy field & all of a sudden they were fired on when asked who was shooting at them the government said taliban this is dispite the fact the tailiban were actually against drugs & it was more likely poor farmers who were seeing there crop destroyed.
It seems to me if we dont like a situation we just call them terroists or taliban.
Come to think of it im havin a argument with a bloke at the track i think he might be a terroist or taliban .
Just puttin my 2 cents worth in & if it offends you i am deeply sorry
& bury my nose back into my winning post lookin for a winner on Sat

Free The Sheeple

Bolded phrases are decent points and another way of looking at these situations.
One huge diff.

Targeting totally innocent people for the purpose of instilling terror in a population. What do you think Hamas would do with a nuke? Israel has nukes. Chance they use them... slim to none. Hamas would wipe out Israel instantly. They have already stated they will not allow Israel to exist. The Taliban would use a nuke immediately. Pick an admirable quality (no drugs for the Taliban) and that makes them fine.

So the above is fanciful but not truthful. Religious zealotry is not just an Islamic quality. Right now the radical Islamic brand leads to a desire to kill totally innocent people for a chance in heaven. And it is fairly widespread. Maybe out of pure desperation. Nonetheless, completely wrong and brainwashed. I did not grow up in a school that taught me to kill, that death to the nonbelievers gives me a place in heaven. I have the freedom to read and worship as I want. I have the ability to search for some truth and believe what I want based on reason.

If you cant see the diff. I feel sorry for you. Good luck at the track.

[GenuineRisk]

History of Hamas. Interesting reading, with some explanation of why they are popular with the Palestinian people- and no, it's not the rocket attacks:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/in_depth/...es/1654510.stm

[Downthestretch55]

Originally Posted by GenuineRisk

History of Hamas. Interesting reading, with some explanation of why they are popular with the Palestinian people- and no, it's not the rocket attacks:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/in_depth/...es/1654510.stm

GenuineRisk,
That was a very good read.
I've been wondering why those that support "democracy" in the Middle East are having such a meltdown over Hamas. Seems to me that Condi should have opened a dialogue with them quite a while ago.


And Pgardn,
You might find this article to be of interest. Note the administrations the US supports. The "charade" of US policy is easily seen.
http://www.commondreams.org/archive/2007/06/16/1928/

[Mortimer]

Originally Posted by GenuineRisk

History of Hamas. Interesting reading, with some explanation of why they are popular with the Palestinian people- and no, it's not the rocket attacks:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/in_depth/...es/1654510.stm

Uh....ma'am.



Let's stay out of manly intellectual discussions.....shall we?

[hoovesupsideyourhead]

Originally Posted by mortimerdexterfoxworthy

Uh....ma'am.



Let's stay out of manly intellectual discussions.....shall we?

hey morty ...do you have to give your bull shiet on every thread,,fn lame dude..

[Mortimer]

Originally Posted by hoovesupsideyourhead

hey morty ...do you have to give your bull shiet on every thread,,fn lame dude..

Why yes.....I do.










You may go fucl< yourself now...if you wish.

[hoovesupsideyourhead]

some one is a little angry














oh











too bad









thud..or pud

[Mortimer]

Ah wonder who?

Originally Posted by Downthestretch55

GenuineRisk,
That was a very good read.
I've been wondering why those that support "democracy" in the Middle East are having such a meltdown over Hamas. Seems to me that Condi should have opened a dialogue with them quite a while ago.


And Pgardn,
You might find this article to be of interest. Note the administrations the US supports. The "charade" of US policy is easily seen.
http://www.commondreams.org/archive/2007/06/16/1928/

I have never said we have supported regimes that are squeeky clean. We have supported some awful dictators.

Bush and Olmert are not giving up on Abbas just yet:

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/06/19/wo...hp&oref=slogin

But I still think Gaza will go down in the end.

DTS and SS: Why is it that Hamas will not recognize Israel's right to exist?

You see this is/was the major sticking point. They have flatly stated they will destroy Israel. So how do you guys pose Israel is supposed to negotiate with any Hamas led government? Or the Israelis have no right to be there and they should leave as Hamas claims. Go back thru all that history and make absurd claims, all sides do this. Is that what must be resorted to?

[SentToStud]

Originally Posted by pgardn

I have never said we have supported regimes that are squeeky clean. We have supported some awful dictators.

Bush and Olmert are not giving up on Abbas just yet:

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/06/19/wo...hp&oref=slogin

But I still think Gaza will go down in the end.

DTS and SS: Why is it that Hamas will not recognize Israel's right to exist?

You see this is/was the major sticking point. They have flatly stated they will destroy Israel. So how do you guys pose Israel is supposed to negotiate with any Hamas led government? Or the Israelis have no right to be there and they should leave as Hamas claims. Go back thru all that history and make absurd claims, all sides do this. Is that what must be resorted to?

I don't like answering a question with one of my own but.... How exactly is Hamas going to destroy Israel? It's certainly awful rhetoric, the rockets they launch kill innocent people and I certainly don't blame Hamas opposition in Israel for responding as strongly as possible. But I find it hard to see how they can do it. I certainly don't believe they can do it on their own. And if no other Arab states chose to jump into Lebanon, I can't see them supporting the Palestinians in any extended conflict. Frankly, the Palestinians are the hillbillies of the Arab world. No one -- Arab or Non-Arab -- gives a rat's ass about the Palestinians except one country - Israel. That's because they must do so.