Denman or Kauto Star?

[NoChanceToDance]

Who do you like?

It's a no brainer for me, Denman really impresses me wherever he runs. There is something about him that I really enjoy. On the other hand, Kauto Star just doesn't do it for me at all. Don't ask me why, because I really don't know. He just doesn't stand out. I'm not for one minute saying he isn't a good horse (we all know he is) but I'm doubtful if he is as good as Denman.

Kauto's gold cup win wasn't exactly brilliant. It was run at a slow gallop and to be honest, it wasn't as good a field as we are used to in the Gold Cup.

I know Denman was 1/4 yesterday and fully expected to win as he liked, but it was the way he took Ollie Magern on (something, which no other horse has been able to do in the past) and did it with such ease.

If he can do that, what's to say he can't make all in a Gold Cup and run his rivals ragged?

Anyway, who else has an opinion of these two?

[brockguy]

I could talk all day about these two.. Denman just looks like a special horse, but to be honest, he has yet to beat anything of significant note.. While Denman's Hennessy was brilliant, Kauto's King George was better, I just couldnt believe how easily he went to the front.

Talk in the racingpost about Denman breaking Ollie Magern's heart is a bit dramatic and OTT. He lost by pretty much the same distance Kauto beat him in the Betfair and they let him do whatever he wanted.

One thing for sure is that it will be a great Gold Cup. I just hope that we dont get a really cut up field. Plus I hope Nicholls put Neptune Collonges in as I feel he is well worth his line up in the field..

[Hwjb]

First of all, talk of a two-horse Gold Cup is premature - a peak-form Exotic Dancer isn't out of things.

Obviously it's difficult not to have been impressed with Denman. They say horse's aren't machines, but surely he's as close to any horse that is. Just programme him to gallop and he won't stop. He'll have to grind Kauto Star down, though, because Kauto will be far too quick for Denman otherwise. Kauto Star has proven himself the best horse since Desert Orchid, whereas Denman still has around 8 lb to find. It's tempting to imagine that he'll only do this if the ground comes up testing at Cheltenham. The fact that the race was steadily-run last year adds substance to what the patiently ridden Kauto Star (and, more so, Exotic Dancer) achieved, but it does mean that he remains unproven over a really testing three and a quarter miles. I remain convinced that it won't prove a problem for him which, added to the fact that his jumping is ever-increasingly less of a concern, makes Kauto Star the more likely winner in my mind.

[NoChanceToDance]

See, I'm not convinced that Denman is this slow galloper that everyone is suggesting he might be and that Kauto will have too much toe for him.

Forgive me if what I was told is wrong, but wasn't his win at Newbury the other day faster than Kauto's King George win?

I just feel that Denman's form this year is stronger than that of Kauto Star.

I'm probably being a little biased because Denman is THE horse in my opinion.

[Hwjb]

Two things. First, Denman met his only defeat in a Royal and SunAlliance Hurdle in which the emphasis was too much on speed. Nicholls has since said that they didn't ride him positively enough and, for all he stayed on really well, he was never quite able to get Nicanor off the bridle. Second, surely it's unimaginable to think that Denman couldd have replicated his stablemate and won a Tingle Creek in the devastating style of Kauto Star.

It's true that Denman's Aon win was achieved in a quicker time (6.03.95) to Kauto Star's King George (6.09.35), but you can't go round comparing times from different tracks just because they're run at the same trip. The Racing Post standard at Nebury is 5.50, compared with 6mins at Kempton. Time comparisons are only ever of any real use when compared with races on the same card at the same trip, and, as you would expect, the time performance of the King George was in a different league to that of the Feltham, whilst on form Kauto's imperious win was the best seen in the race since Desert Orchid, surpassing those of One Man, See More Business and Kicking King.

[ARyan]

Originally Posted by Hwjb

Two things. First, Denman met his only defeat in a Royal and SunAlliance Hurdle in which the emphasis was too much on speed. Nicholls has since said that they didn't ride him positively enough and, for all he stayed on really well, he was never quite able to get Nicanor off the bridle. Second, surely it's unimaginable to think that Denman couldd have replicated his stablemate and won a Tingle Creek in the devastating style of Kauto Star.

It's true that Denman's Aon win was achieved in a quicker time (6.03.95) to Kauto Star's King George (6.09.35), but you can't go round comparing times from different tracks just because they're run at the same trip. The Racing Post standard at Nebury is 5.50, compared with 6mins at Kempton. Time comparisons are only ever of any real use when compared with races on the same card at the same trip, and, as you would expect, the time performance of the King George was in a different league to that of the Feltham, whilst on form Kauto's imperious win was the best seen in the race since Desert Orchid, surpassing those of One Man, See More Business and Kicking King.

While I am a newbie on this scene, when I was at Kempton for the King George, I absolutly fell in love with Kauto Star. His win was so impressive.

I also fell in love with Straw Bear, but I hear he bleeds. They should send him across the pond and let him clean up over here.

I love reading this part of the DT Forum now, and keeping up with the UK racing.

[my miss storm cat]

I'm going to be stubborn here and hope that the gallant win by The Listener puts to rest the whole it's-not-the-right-distance argument.

Oh yes he can!

The original question..... I'd say Kauto Star but my opinion is based on emotion and not knowledge.

[my miss storm cat]

For his fans, from RP.....

Straw Bear heads straight to Cheltenham without run

by Keith Hamer

STRAW BEAR will go straightto the Smurfit Kappa Champion Hurdle without another run.

Connections made the decision after the JP McManus-owned seven-year-old had a workout on Wednesday.

That means Straw Bear, a 20-1 shot for Champion honours at Cheltenham on March 11, will miss Saturday's Bathwick Tyres Kingwell Hurdle at Wincanton.
"He's not running at Wincanton. He's going to go straight for the Champion Hurdle," said trainer Nick Gifford.

"He had a breeze this morning and I've spoken to Frank Berry (the owner's racing manager) and we've decided we're going straight to Cheltenham. The horse is in good form."

[ARyan]

Originally Posted by my miss storm cat

For his fans, from RP.....

Straw Bear heads straight to Cheltenham without run

by Keith Hamer

STRAW BEAR will go straightto the Smurfit Kappa Champion Hurdle without another run.

Connections made the decision after the JP McManus-owned seven-year-old had a workout on Wednesday.

That means Straw Bear, a 20-1 shot for Champion honours at Cheltenham on March 11, will miss Saturday's Bathwick Tyres Kingwell Hurdle at Wincanton.
"He's not running at Wincanton. He's going to go straight for the Champion Hurdle," said trainer Nick Gifford.

"He had a breeze this morning and I've spoken to Frank Berry (the owner's racing manager) and we've decided we're going straight to Cheltenham. The horse is in good form."

Thank you!!!

[Hwjb]

Straw Bear is beginning to look a bit of a twicer, now that may be down to physical problems rather than anything else, but even at the top of his game he would make limited appeal for the Champion Hurdle as he's probably not even among the top 3 British-trained contenders, not to mention the Irish! If he's straight, however, he'll make a fantastic novice chaser when the time comes next season.

Whilst The Listener is a top-class chaser, he's proven that several times of the last two seasons, the problem will likely be that he'll encounter ground much less testing than suits him best.

[my miss storm cat]

What about Monet?

Do you see him as having a shot?

[Hwjb]

Monet's Garden was receiving 14 lb and beat Kauto Star 1.25 lengths at Aintree earlier in the year when Kauto was patently in need of the run more than Monet's, so he'd effectively need Kauto to fall to come out on top. The two meet today in the Ascot Chase over 2m5f off level weight and it will be a major shock if Kauto is beaten, even though he won't be spot on for this with Cheltenham just 4 weeks away, whereas I believe Monet's Garden is being kept for Aintree in April, and so is more likely to be trained to the day for this race, which he won 12 months ago. Racing Demon should be suited by the track, however, and I think he can be the one to chase Kauto Star home today. We'll see!

[NoChanceToDance]

Originally Posted by Hwjb

Monet's Garden was receiving 14 lb and beat Kauto Star 1.25 lengths at Aintree earlier in the year when Kauto was patently in need of the run more than Monet's, so he'd effectively need Kauto to fall to come out on top. The two meet today in the Ascot Chase over 2m5f off level weight and it will be a major shock if Kauto is beaten, even though he won't be spot on for this with Cheltenham just 4 weeks away, whereas I believe Monet's Garden is being kept for Aintree in April, and so is more likely to be trained to the day for this race, which he won 12 months ago. Racing Demon should be suited by the track, however, and I think he can be the one to chase Kauto Star home today. We'll see!

I don't agree about the point you made that Kaudo was more in need of the run than Monet's at Aintree at all. Everything about the race suggested that Kauto was by far the the fitter that day, including on paddock looks.

Kauto will win today if he stands up, but the race at Aintree was certainly interesting and although Nicholls said he was "thrilled" with that run, he was pretty down after that and so were quite a few of the staff, as they thought he was "buying money" that day!

[brockguy]

kauto wins as he pleases today.. all set for cheltenham. I have to note Neptune Collonges performance today at Wincanton giving a stone and more to his rivals.. I think he can come 2nd in the Gold Cup - a seriously underrated horse...

[my miss storm cat]

Sporting Life...

KAUTO RUMOURS SURFACE


By PA Sport Staff



A number of bookmakers have suspended betting on the totesport Cheltenham Gold Cup amid rumours about the wellbeing of favourite Kauto Star.

Paul Nicholls' reigning champion was an impressive winner of the Commercial First Ascot Chase on Saturday afternoon, seeing off Monet's Garden by eight lengths.

However, the Racing Post later reported that Nicholls' stable star has sprained a fetlock and that the trainer will issue an update on his wellbeing on Sunday.

Stan James, totesport and Paddy Power were among the bookmakers to stop taking bets on the March 14 feature.

[NoChanceToDance]

I can't see him making the line up to be honest. Paul Nicholls is not one to rush horses, especially good horses like him.

The betting told you all you needed to know last night; Denman Evens and Kauto Star almost 4/1.

I hate to sound horrible or negative but in a strange sort of way, it spices up the Gold Cup a bit now.

[brockguy]

cant agree with you here at all.. if Kauto, Denman and Exotic get there sprinkled with a few other good horses, it'll be the best Gold Cup certainly in my lifetime watching racing.. Kauto not going would be an absolutely devestating blow for everyone in racing and would do anything but spice up the gold cup.

[NoChanceToDance]

Originally Posted by brockguy

cant agree with you here at all.. if Kauto, Denman and Exotic get there sprinkled with a few other good horses, it'll be the best Gold Cup certainly in my lifetime watching racing.. Kauto not going would be an absolutely devestating blow for everyone in racing and would do anything but spice up the gold cup.

We're going to have to agree to disagree. I can't stand races where one or two automatically stand out from the rest, especially high calibre races with only one or two realistic winners. I was impressed with Kauto yesterday and was starting to come round to terms with the fact he was going to be very difficult to beat at Cheltenham. With the possibility of the Gold Cup without him, it brings much more competition to the race in my opinion. That's the way I prefer it.

I don't think Cheltenham looks that good at all this year. I've been so depressed with the NH season so far I haven't bothered to watch half of it. Usually at this time of the year I'm getting excited about Cheltenham...... not this year. Maybe it's just me, but you look at the races and nothing stands out.

A weak champion hurdle, a weak looking arkle, a three or four horse gold cup, a sun alliance chase where no form is working out at all, a one horse world hurdle (by the looks of it)

[Hwjb]

How can anyone not be excited by the thought of this most intriguing of Gold Cups, when, in Kauto Star, you've got the best chaser since Desert Orchid and, in Denman, one who is already just about on a par with the likes of Master Oats and See More Business and remains open to further improvement, with the top-class Exotic Dancer there to keep the pair of them honest. I'm as excited about this renewal as I have been about any race I can remember, although I've got a nagging feeling that one of them will either fall early or step on a stone on the morning of the race.

As for the other races, one does get the feeling that many of the divisions aren't quite up to their usual level this season. Still, the Gold Cup makes up for that in itself! Plus the weights haven't come out for the handicaps yet. Wait until we've had a chance to get stuck into them!

[brockguy]

Harry, how much does Neptune need to find on Kauto and Denman on your ratings? thanks...