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#1
04-08-2008, 08:02 AM
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Pletcher
Pletchers top 20 derby colts, how many could still qualify for a NW of 2 race? I would say his owners spent more at the sales for the fewest derby starters. I dont consider myself a Pletcher basher but have you ever seen him take a 50k purchase and make a top stakes horse? More known for taking a sales topper and making a central park pony.
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#2
04-08-2008, 08:32 AM
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This was discussed somewhat yesterday. Obviously the TAP program isn't flush right now and is not getting results like its used to... Variety of reasons suggested as was brought out elsewhere yesterday...
There are plenty of examples of Pletcher taking moderately priced young horses and getting a lot out of them. Purge cost $180k and he turned him into a pretty successful horse winning the Peter Pan, Jim Dandy and Cigar Mile. Flower Alley was a $50,000 weanling and $165,000 yearling and won the Travers, Lane's End and Jim Dandy and was 2nd in the Breeders' Cup Classic. Both have sire careers... I'm sure DrugS can add to the list.. What sales toppers did Pletcher 'ruin' IYO exactly? (And the ridiculous Green Monkey is hardly an example before he gets brought up...)
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All ambitions are lawful except those which climb upward on the miseries or credulities of mankind. ~ Joseph Conrad A long habit of not thinking a thing wrong, gives it a superficial appearance of being right. ~ Thomas Paine Don't let anyone tell you that your dreams can't come true. They are only afraid that theirs won't and yours will. ~ Robert Evans
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#3
04-08-2008, 08:59 AM
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Im sure your right about sales toppers. He dosent train for Godolphin or Darley. He does get his share of the elite tho.How much input does he have on his clients purchases? His training practices are often refered as modern and a business as much as a training operation.Success of a bussiness is .bottom line profit. I am just wondering if anyone has gleaned the stats on amount his clients have invested and there return. He leads with purse money most every year. I realize the residual and bigger money is in the breeding shed. How much of his purse earning are purchased?
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#4
04-08-2008, 09:10 AM
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Quote:
 ), and she sold for a mere $40k as a yearling.As for the most notorious sales topper, TGM, everybody around the barn there knew he couldn't run. His barn manager gave the old company line "well, he's had some setbacks, and probably lost a few steps because of that" before his first start. That had nothing to do with Pletcher, he just got stuck in the no-win situation of training that bum.
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please use generalizations and non-truths when arguing your side, thank you
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#5
04-08-2008, 09:36 AM
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While I will be no where near the front of the line on TAP appreciation day, I don't think it's fair to cast blame on anything other than the odds when it comes to his 3 yr old campaign this year. The odds simply caught up with him and the fact that you can't be at the top all the time in this game, I don't care how many horses you have.....20 out of approximately 30,000 foals make it each year, so the odds have to catch up sooner or later....
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#6
04-08-2008, 09:40 AM
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Quote:
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#7
04-08-2008, 10:05 AM
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Excellent thread. Like others, I am not the President of his fan club, nor am I the President of the basher's club. I don't know him personally. Todd Pletcher runs an incredible operation -- extremely efficient, effective, organizational strucuture, process, etc. He also produces. To what level is a different issue, but he certainly produces. Not winning a Derby doesn't make a trainer good, not good, etc. I've heard people say that he starts out the year with more TC nominated horses than anyone else -- sure, of course he does. I've heard 40, 50, numbers like that. OK, so should it be expected that 5 make the big dance? 3? 1? Even Warren Buffett misses "the mark" I am sad to say. But even when Pletcher does -- he sets record after record, in earnings, graded stakes won, etc. Some may like "corporate" training and his "way" while others may not.
He shoots at a very high level, meet after meet, division after division, right down the line, and he wins numerous training titles all over the place. Sure, the #'s in the barn behind the stats play a role. However, as others have pointed out, his owners -- and I am sure Pletcher's -- goal is not to aim to win training titles. It's more with an eye toward winning Grade 1's, graded stakes, BC's, and of course TC races. What some don't realize is that winning maidens and conditions, and so on, is the path to the goal; at least they all hope so. Exclusive of the Sheiks -- I think Pletcher has more financial firepower and backing than anyone. He's made some expensive horses and some modest ones. However, when the fire starts to diminish -- in anyone's barn -- there are reasons why and if you look for them you can make money. Bill Mott for example. He is an excellent horseman and trainer. The guy had a super Spa meet last year. Then he comes to Belmont, and many of his horses went off as favorite. Someone will know the exact numbers, but Mott went something like 0 for 12, then 1 for 16 or so, then maybe 2 for 20 plus (something along those lines) into the meet. The uneducated and conspiracy theorists started with the BS. However, all you have to do is look at the horses he's bringing over. Read a condition book, see how many of horses went through their conditions, got turned out, were laid up, who was coming in, etc. Concept same, specifics different with Pletcher of course. I think this is an excellent discussion where many of the different aspects of a trainer, a barn, operating a stable, etc. can come into play. There's a lot to be learned from a discussion like this. Eric
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#8
04-08-2008, 10:38 PM
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I woundered if he could purchase Medjool at www.equineprep.com
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#9
04-08-2008, 11:29 PM
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Eric makes many great points.
Todd has set the bar extremely high for himself. Anything less than overwhelming success looks like failure. Eric also mentions winning maidens and allowances. These are often the hardest horses to have while trying to maintain a high percentage. Every win means a step up nest time. Claiming stock and stakes horses are not required to move up with a win but allowance horses must. Mott's rough start at Belmont last fall bears this out. He won alot of races at SAR but many were maidens (alot of Zayat babies) who were then forced into winning company. That's a huge jump. This brings us to owners. Some, like Zayat like to call the shots, others will let a trainer have free rein to manage the stock. One or two overbearing owners, if they are significant enough, can throw off the rhythm of how things function in the barn. Pressure for certain objective (the Derby for example) can force a change in course. Todd has won just about everything but a Derby so it's possible that in pointing for Louisville he "overthinks" things and changes his habits. Maybe he's like the brilliant student who doesn't test well. I tend to think that Todd and Bobby Frankel have struggled with the Derby and BC because they have padded their stats by chosing their spots. By that I mean that if horse X is pointing for "race A" but on the day is less that 100%, they alter course and point for "Race B" a week or two, or a month or two later . Horse wins. Trainer looks brilliant. The problem is that with the Derby or BC, they are no "Race B's" to point for. It's that day or bust.
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RIP Monroe.
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#11
04-09-2008, 12:54 AM
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The owners are not going to get their investment back on the race track. I believe that most owners (no matter who the trainer is) lose money. It would be unfair to judge the success of Pletcher by what the owner makes while the horse races. I think you have to look at the breeding side as well.
Personally, I do not mind Pletcher. He works hard and seems to be a good guy.
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