To pedigreeann

fmc123412 · #1 07-21-2006, 10:42 AM

Pedigreeann,

I was told you are the one about this issue! Can you help me answer the question I put on this topic?

http://derbytrail.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2183

Thank you!

#2 07-21-2006, 11:01 AM

Miss Ann,

Your attention is needed on the Best Broodmares thread.

You've got some 'splaining to do, young lady.

#3 07-21-2006, 11:21 AM

FMC,

The advice you were given on the other thread was quite good.

Both stallions were quality race horses from good families ... but both have been around for a while as stallions ... and their records aren't particularly distinguished.

Both broodmares haven't done much so far ... and Reforce is a little on the old side. Most broodmares produce their best runners with their first or second foal ... although there are some dramatic exceptions.

You were advised that the colt has slightly better bloodlines ... and I agree. He is linebred to Nasrullah ... which may not mean much these days ... but it does offer some hope.

The best thing to do is speak to someone who is a conformation expert ... have the expert look at the yearlings as individuals ... and go by what he/she says. The bloodlines alone aren't anything special.

Pedigree Ann · #4 07-21-2006, 11:52 AM

Okay, I've been out of town helping my 86yo mom for a week and am now getting caught up with things. Can't find every thread posted in the meantime.

Blush Rambler was a good runner in Europe (SW, G1-placed), well-bred, and has been a top sire in Brasil (a Derby winner plus other SWs). His damsireTumble Lark made a huge impact in Brasil, with champions like Dark Brown and Big Lark. He was a US-bred, too, by turf champ T. V. Lark. The sires on down the damline - Henri le Balafre and Locris and Sunny Boy - were top runners in France and influential sires in Brasil. And of course the family traces to Emocion, winner of both of the Brasilian Oaks races (Gavea and Cidade Jardim), a full sister to champion Emerson (classic sire in France), and dam of Embuche, one of the greatest mares in Brazilian racing history; another daughter of Emocion went to Argentina and produced at G1 winner and the second dam of current star Latency. The colt's third dam Emigrette was a full sister to Emerald Hill, another dual Oaks winner who is on the same list with Embuche.

The most iintriguing thing about the colt's pedigree (to the pedigree geek) is the inbreeding to the mare Tumbling, dam of Tumble Lark and third dam of Alleged, damsire of Blush Rambler. Reinforces the distance/turfiness of the pedigree. Filly later.

dellinger63 · #5 07-21-2006, 12:02 PM

told you she was the one to talk to.
hope you've been well Ann
Still have Red Down South in Stable mail lol

#6 07-21-2006, 12:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pedigree Ann

Okay, I've been out of town helping my 86yo mom for a week and am now getting caught up with things. Can't find every thread posted in the meantime.

Blush Rambler was a good runner in Europe (SW, G1-placed), well-bred, and has been a top sire in Brasil (a Derby winner plus other SWs). His damsireTumble Lark made a huge impact in Brasil, with champions like Dark Brown and Big Lark. He was a US-bred, too, by turf champ T. V. Lark. The sires on down the damline - Henri le Balafre and Locris and Sunny Boy - were top runners in France and influential sires in Brasil. And of course the family traces to Emocion, winner of both of the Brasilian Oaks races (Gavea and Cidade Jardim), a full sister to champion Emerson (classic sire in France), and dam of Embuche, one of the greatest mares in Brazilian racing history; another daughter of Emocion went to Argentina and produced at G1 winner and the second dam of current star Latency. The colt's third dam Emigrette was a full sister to Emerald Hill, another dual Oaks winner who is on the same list with Embuche.

The most iintriguing thing about the colt's pedigree (to the pedigree geek) is the inbreeding to the mare Tumbling, dam of Tumble Lark and third dam of Alleged, damsire of Blush Rambler. Reinforces the distance/turfiness of the pedigree. Filly later.

Ann you are just simply awesome. By far, the best poster on this site IMO.

Pedigree Ann · #7 07-21-2006, 12:44 PM

Stallion statistics from Brasil tend to be segregated by track; when I pulled up this year's statistics from Sao Paolo (Cidade Jardim), at the top of the sire's list was Romarin and at the the top of the sires of broodmares list was Minstrel Glory. Oddly enough, neither is in the top twenty at Rio (Gavea). Still, it is an indication of quality. You may not recall Romarin as a top turf miler (8f-9f) in this country in the mid-1990s; won the Early TImes Classic on Derby Day, etc. But he was also second in the Derby Paulista at 12f back home.

Minstrel Glory was not that good a runner, probably had soundness problems since he made only 11 starts in 3 years of racing. Had two wins and a 2nd in the Westchester H (G3) at Aqueduct. He sired some decent runners but seems to be better as a sire of dams. I don't have as much data about Uruguayan bloodlines as I do Brasilian ones; this female side is a lot Uruguayan and it doesn't tie in to any of the classic winners I have catalogued. The sire of the second dam Heathen stood in Uruguay and got the top horse Hampstead before being exported to Brasil. The sire of the second dam Snow Puppet was a full brother to a local Triple Crown winner at La Plata in Argentina named Snow Gambler - the Snow Cat over Claro cross was a really potent one. The next dam was by Granado, who is unfamiliar to me, but his sire Uranio I know as an excellent classic sire, as was Ruler, the sire of the next dam.

All things considered, I would say that this would be more of a miler pedigree. I would agree that this pedigree is a bit 'lighter' in quality, espeically on the female side, than the colt's.

Pedigree Ann · #8 07-21-2006, 12:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by eurobounce

Ann you are just simply awesome. By far, the best poster on this site IMO.

Just obsessive-compulsive about TB pedigrees and organizing my data so that I can access it. And a fly-paper memory doesn't hurt (not as good as photographic, but if I see something a few times it sticks.)

ArlJim78 · #9 07-21-2006, 12:52 PM

What a resource this place is for a person with a pedigree question! Man those are great responses people.

fmc123412 · #10 07-21-2006, 12:58 PM

Simply awesome your answer Pedigree Ann!

Thank a lot!! It will be very helpful!!

Thank you Bold Brooklynite, too!!

Pedigree Ann · #11 07-21-2006, 01:18 PM

Tell you what - I'll tell you about pedigrees if you will help me improve my handicapping. I can pick up the rare gem (Siphon City) but can't do it consistently, like some of you.

#12 07-21-2006, 01:35 PM

Could you imagine going to the track with Ann. Shoot, you would have every angle possible. That would be too much fun.

Pointg5 · #13 07-21-2006, 02:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by eurobounce

Could you imagine going to the track with Ann. Shoot, you would have every angle possible. That would be too much fun.

No offense, all of that pedigree information is great and you obviously have to be intelligent to have that much info, but I don't really see how that would help you, given possible pace scenarios, how fast a horse may actually be or multiple other factors.

Again, no slam on Ann, but what good would it do you to know that so and so is a great great grandson of so and so. I guess you could say that based on breeding they may only go run so far or excell at longer distances, but until they actually do it, you do not really know what they will do...

sumitas · #14 07-21-2006, 02:12 PM

True, but in the Belmont the 4 best pedigrees, imo prior to the race, finished in the top 4 spots.

Sometimes a pedigree can translate into a handicapping factor. But I would not place it foremost on the list. I'd say form cycle and documented speed are primary, in general.

fmc123412 · #15 07-21-2006, 02:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pointg5

No offense, all of that pedigree information is great and you obviously have to be intelligent to have that much info, but I don't really see how that would help you, given possible pace scenarios, how fast a horse may actually be or multiple other factors.

Again, no slam on Ann, but what good would it do you to know that so and so is a great great grandson of so and so. I guess you could say that based on breeding they may only go run so far or excell at longer distances, but until they actually do it, you do not really know what they will do...

I think that pedigrees tell the probability a horse can perform on a certain distance or surface compared to other horses....so imo its extremely useful for both auctions or handicapping on unraced and lightly raced 2yo/3yo colts and fillies starting their careers

Pointg5 · #16 07-21-2006, 02:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fmc123412

I think that pedigrees tell the probability a horse can perform on a certain distance or surface compared to other horses....so imo its extremely useful for both auctions or handicapping on unraced and lightly raced 2yo/3yo colts and fillies starting their careers

They are not unimportant, but if I had to decide if I would excel at knowing pedigree or have the ability to watch a horse and see how they move, like what rupert/richi can do, I think I would go with seeing how they move. I would bet I that if I had a copy of the DRF in front of me now, there's plenty of "well-bred" horses that are just plain slow.

sumitas · #17 07-21-2006, 02:33 PM

I think Ann nailed it for you. You have to know what you want.

Mares tend to have more residual value than colts in that they can usually be bred after a racing career, or even unraced.

Often colts are gelded and once their career is over they become an expense. Few succeed at stud if they remain whole.

#18 07-21-2006, 03:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pointg5

No offense, all of that pedigree information is great and you obviously have to be intelligent to have that much info, but I don't really see how that would help you, given possible pace scenarios, how fast a horse may actually be or multiple other factors.

Again, no slam on Ann, but what good would it do you to know that so and so is a great great grandson of so and so. I guess you could say that based on breeding they may only go run so far or excell at longer distances, but until they actually do it, you do not really know what they will do...

Oh pedigree plays an important role in handicapping for me in certain races. Comes in handy the most when you are capping 1st time starters. Also comes into play when handicapping off tracks. That is why you will see the off spring of Unbridled get hammered when the dirt track is off. Now, just a normal 1 mile dirt race worth $15k then it doesnt help. But combine the handicapping side and the pedigree side could form a very powerful combination.

#19 07-21-2006, 03:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fmc123412

Simply awesome your answer Pedigree Ann!

Thank a lot!! It will be very helpful!!

Thank you Bold Brooklynite, too!!

You're most welcome.

(See, Pedigree Ann .. that's how to be "gracious" ... why not give it a try on the "Broodmare" thread?)

#20 07-21-2006, 03:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pointg5

No offense, all of that pedigree information is great and you obviously have to be intelligent to have that much info, but I don't really see how that would help you, given possible pace scenarios, how fast a horse may actually be or multiple other factors.

Again, no slam on Ann, but what good would it do you to know that so and so is a great great grandson of so and so. I guess you could say that based on breeding they may only go run so far or excell at longer distances, but until they actually do it, you do not really know what they will do...

Absolutely right ... lots of "inbred 4x5" mumbo-jumbo ... but not a scintilla of practical advice.

My advice ... and the advice of others on another thread ... was much, much more useful.