Inducement for stamina-building breeding?

[Kasept]

From Alan Shuback's wrap-up of closing day at Ascot... Note the condition of the race the Queen's colt won...


Queen Elizabeth had something to cheer about as her juvenile colt Free Agent won the listed seven-furlong Chesham Stakes by 2 1/4 lengths as the 7-2 co-favorite with runner-up Seaway. A son of Dr Fong, Free Agent was winning for the second time in two starts in a race restricted to horses whose sires had won going at least 1 1/4 miles.


Isn't this a viable model for the way to build interest in the 'unfashionable' stamina-tinged sires/sire lines? Pleasant Tap, Broad Brush sons, etc? Can be "sires who won going at least 1 1/8 miles", or whatever...

[TheSpyder]

Steve,

I think you're absolutely right, not only to include such conditions but to take it a step further, if there were emphasis on longer races, owners and trainers would bring horses that can run long races.

I know many thought the 1 1/2 mile marathon Breeders Cup race was a joke, but a look at what is done in UK shows these are great races and actually are looked upon as the gold standard. If there was a trend to these type races more emphasis would be put on breeding, training, and running longer races. If speed can take a back seat to stamina it's got to be a good thing.

Spyder

[Kasept]

The Marathon is looking like it will be a positive with the movement and stretchout of the historical Brooklyn and re-emergence of several 'old-timey' route stakes.

Plus, there was the news of these three new 12f events just last week:

Greenwood Cup at Philadelphia Park on July 19;

Cougar II Handicap at Del Mar on July 30;

Turfway Fall Championship at Turfway Park on Sept. 6.

I imagine that one key element for the conditional stakes would be to running a number of them for 2 year olds and early in the sophomore season...

[deltagulf]

i believe the majority of races should be routes then sprints. the routes are my favorite. to place a bet on.

[TheSpyder]

I agree. I'd be thrilled if all these 5f & 6f grass sprints would be replaced with long routes.

Spydee

Originally Posted by deltagulf

i believe the majority of races should be routes then sprints. the routes are my favorite. to place a bet on.

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by TheSpyder

I agree. I'd be thrilled if all these 5f & 6f grass sprints would be replaced with long routes.

Spydee

I know facts sometimes get in the way of good arguments but England runs tons of sprints, every race isnt a mile and a half. Australia runs tons of sprints also. The reasons that shorter races and speed based pedigrees have become more fashionable are mostly economic. Buying horses or breeding horses for stamina is simply more expensive due to the fact that you usually have an extra year before these types of horses are at their best. With training and other expenses rising like everything else, it is just hard to justify economically breeding horses that may not be at their best till they are 4 or 5.

[Cajungator26]

Originally Posted by Kasept

Isn't this a viable model for the way to build interest in the 'unfashionable' stamina-tinged sires/sire lines? Pleasant Tap, Broad Brush sons, etc? Can be "sires who won going at least 1 1/8 miles", or whatever...

Doesn't the dam have a lot to do with it too, though?

[Kasept]

Originally Posted by DaHoss9698

The marathon has been a great idea. I know I can't wait for the epic battle between Delosvientos and Big Booster.

Isn't that being short-sighted Jay? If the idea was too make-over the route-going handicap division, you have to start somewhere. While there may be a dearth of quality competitors in the 12f 'division' this year, this could end up a successful concept long term.

If the purse money is big they will wait and come. You dont even need to worry about the sire thing. Long races for bucks. Do the wagerers want to see these long races and would the tracks put them up.

Big Market for long races?

Originally Posted by Cajungator26

Doesn't the dam have a lot to do with it too, though?

I would argue more.

[eajinabi]

Routes are great but there will be a lot more chaulk.

No offense to European racing but if the races end up like that in this country I, and I'm sure many others, will stop supporting this sport.

[Kasept]

Originally Posted by DaHoss9698

The idea of a marathon distance division is the direct opposite to what the breeders are doing right now. It's speed, speed and more speed. In my opinion, thinking that carding a few extra races a year, so that glorified claimers can run in a Breeders Cup race is being kind of naive.

This is partially why I was so honery about the hearings the other day. The racing secretaries group resolved 2 years ago to card more routes in the attempt to reinforce opportunities for older horses. That has morphed into a cohesive program incorporating 10-12f events leading to the BC Dirt Marathon and I can't see why there would be disdain at its' prospect.

[Kasept]

Originally Posted by DaHoss9698

Prospect for what? A Breeders Cup Claiming race? I've very excited about it. I just don't think we are going to see the top class horses competing in these races. We clearly aren't getting it now and I really don't think the game is suddenly going to change. Do you? Until the people breeding the horses are behind it, it's a waste of time IMO.

Of course it won't change things overnight, but considering how everyone has been so critical that little gets done in the game, I don't understand the disinterest in supporting a pro-active direction like this no matter how inconsequential its' effect may be in the short term.

[Cajungator26]

Originally Posted by DaHoss9698

I'll believe it when I see it. Thats's all I'm saying.

Sissy.

[Cannon Shell]

Races that are restricted to certain sires are an interesting way to go but since they cant be graded they will never be really important. The best thing that could happen to horse 'racing' at the higher levels is the elimination of the grading system. It is too easy to gain "credentials" with the grading system by winning or placing in one graded race regardless of the strenght or weakness of the race. The way commercial breeders think all grade 3's are pretty much equal because they are the same grade. After a few years everybody forgets the relative strength or weakness of a race and it is remembered as a Grade 3 win period. Graded placings and wins gives far too much value to ordinary horses who happen to luck into a weak division or watered down race. I dont think there is one fan who won't attend the Travers because there is no grade attached to it. I dont think there is one fan who would attend a race because the races grade was added or moved up. I know the breeders will hate this it but it may help.

[paisjpq]

Originally Posted by Kasept

This is partially why I was so honery about the hearings the other day. The racing secretaries group resolved 2 years ago to card more routes in the attempt to reinforce opportunities for older horses. That has morphed into a cohesive program incorporating 10-12f events leading to the BC Dirt Marathon and I can't see why there would be disdain at its' prospect.

ornery?

[RolloTomasi]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

Races that are restricted to certain sires are an interesting way to go but since they cant be graded they will never be really important. The best thing that could happen to horse 'racing' at the higher levels is the elimination of the grading system. It is too easy to gain "credentials" with the grading system by winning or placing in one graded race regardless of the strenght or weakness of the race. The way commercial breeders think all grade 3's are pretty much equal because they are the same grade. After a few years everybody forgets the relative strength or weakness of a race and it is remembered as a Grade 3 win period. Graded placings and wins gives far too much value to ordinary horses who happen to luck into a weak division or watered down race. I dont think there is one fan who won't attend the Travers because there is no grade attached to it. I dont think there is one fan who would attend a race because the races grade was added or moved up. I know the breeders will hate this it but it may help.

I agree with this and have suggested it elsewhere. Maybe not necessarily across the board, but wouldn't the elimination of graded designations for at least juvenile races preclude certain "stallion producing" stables and farms from securing breeding rights to top 2yos with the intention of early retirement?

I think purse restrictions on the top 2yo races would also discourage those sorts of moves, though it might not be particularly fair in the short term for owners trying to make money by actually racing their horses.

[Cajungator26]

Originally Posted by Payson Dave

...either that or horny.

Most likely the latter.

[Payson Dave]

Originally Posted by paisjpq

ornery?

...either that or horny??