Andrea Yates found not gulity!

[somerfrost]

Thank god!
Justice prevails...she will spend her days in a mental health facility where she belongs! This won't be popular with the "kill em all" crowd but as someone who has worked in mental health for over 30 years and in prisons for 13...this is absolutely the proper place for this woman. Putting her in prison was like incarcerating someone with end-stage lung cancer for coughing up blood and polluting the sidewalk!

[SentToStud]

Originally Posted by somerfrost

Thank god!
Justice prevails...she will spend her days in a mental health facility where she belongs! This won't be popular with the "kill em all" crowd but as someone who has worked in mental health for over 30 years and in prisons for 13...this is absolutely the proper place for this woman. Putting her in prison was like incarcerating someone with end-stage lung cancer for coughing up blood and polluting the sidewalk!

She must have used the Bold Brooklynite defense.

[GenuineRisk]

Originally Posted by SentToStud

She must have used the Bold Brooklynite defense.

I don't get it...

Seriously though, you should read some of the posts on this subject on the AOL site. Or rather, you shouldn't subject yourself. That place really attracts the lowest common denominator...

I think it was the right decision, too.

[somerfrost]

Originally Posted by GenuineRisk

I don't get it...

Seriously though, you should read some of the posts on this subject on the AOL site. Or rather, you shouldn't subject yourself. That place really attracts the lowest common denominator...

I think it was the right decision, too.

Some folks just want their pound of flesh disguised as justice! This was a trial that never should have happened...after the retrial was ordered (on the grounds that one of the prosecution witnesses lied on the stand by the way), the defense offered a plea bargain where she would be committed to a mental health facility for life...exactly what the jury decided! The prosecutor, with plenty of public support and a lot of crap about "remember the poor children" went ahead with the costly sham...hopefully he will be held accountable and asked why??? The woman is responsible for what she did...and she will be held in a place where she can get appropriate treatment. As she becomes more aware of reality, the pain of her acts will hardly seem like she's "getting off easy"...as she recovers (if she does), she will live with the unimaginable pain of killing her kids. This was a woman with a history of severe depression...the fact that there were inadequate MH services to provide her with the help she needed (and ultimately to provide for the safety of her family) is a failure of society to understand the reality of mental illness and the failure of a health care system that is becoming more and more inaccessible to those without significant means...if we are gonna limit medical care to the rich, we cannot call ourselves a compassionate and advanced society!

[2MinsToPost]

no comment

[somerfrost]

Originally Posted by 2MinsToPost

no comment

You post a comment to a thread and say, "no comment"...that was informative!

[GenuineRisk]

Originally Posted by somerfrost

Some folks just want their pound of flesh disguised as justice! This was a trial that never should have happened...after the retrial was ordered (on the grounds that one of the prosecution witnesses lied on the stand by the way), the defense offered a plea bargain where she would be committed to a mental health facility for life...exactly what the jury decided! The prosecutor, with plenty of public support and a lot of crap about "remember the poor children" went ahead with the costly sham...hopefully he will be held accountable and asked why??? The woman is responsible for what she did...and she will be held in a place where she can get appropriate treatment. As she becomes more aware of reality, the pain of her acts will hardly seem like she's "getting off easy"...as she recovers (if she does), she will live with the unimaginable pain of killing her kids. This was a woman with a history of severe depression...the fact that there were inadequate MH services to provide her with the help she needed (and ultimately to provide for the safety of her family) is a failure of society to understand the reality of mental illness and the failure of a health care system that is becoming more and more inaccessible to those without significant means...if we are gonna limit medical care to the rich, we cannot call ourselves a compassionate and advanced society!

I agree with all your points, Somer, but I also put some blame on her home situation-- was there anyone available to her besides her husband to try to get her the help she needed? How is anyone to know someone needs help if neither that person nor any of the people around him/her actively seek it? I just think of that woman at home alone with five small children, homeschooling them and caring for a sick relative on top of it.

And yet I don't even know how much blame can be put on the husband since I think he's very much a product of his culture and religion-- believing women are supposed to be home doing nothing but having and raising kids and tending to the family-- that's what God wants. And the fact that his wife was obviously overworked and miserable probably never entered into his mind because hey, she was doing what she was supposed to do, so therefore she must be fine, right? Or maybe he was aware, but didn't know how to deal with it. Depression is debilitating to the people around the sufferer, too. I just don't know.

Which is not to let our health care system off the hook at all, as it totally sucks. I'm in agreement with you on that.

Though I'm sure Tom Cruise would say with proper exercise and vitamins she would have been fine since Scientologists don't believe post-partum depression exists. Oh, shh... I might get sued now.

[2MinsToPost]

well ok here it goes she killed some innocent children, five, and has the chance now to live in a kosher mental institution and the possibility now exists that she may live to see the freedom she does not deserve. i think it is best for me to say nothing else bout this cause i have VERY, VERY STRONG emotions surronding this case. i will ask you one question,

what seperates her "mental" state from one who comes home after work and catches his wife cheating on him and in a fit of "whatever" kills her? what seperates her from the child molesters? what seperates her from the rapisits? please, she did this METHODICALLY! one BY ONE SHE DROWNED THOSE KIDS, STARTING WITH THE YOUNGEST! i hope she gets what she deserves, a painful death by the hands of someone with nothing to lose.

rehabilate? i'll do it, by means of what she did to those poor children of hers.

just my STRONG, STRONG OPINION.

[GenuineRisk]

Originally Posted by 2MinsToPost

well ok here it goes she killed some innocent children, five, and has the chance now to live in a kosher mental institution and the possibility now exists that she may live to see the freedom she does not deserve. i think it is best for me to say nothing else bout this cause i have VERY, VERY STRONG emotions surronding this case. i will ask you one question,

what seperates her "mental" state from one who comes home after work and catches his wife cheating on him and in a fit of "whatever" kills her? what seperates her from the child molesters? what seperates her from the rapisits? please, she did this METHODICALLY! one BY ONE SHE DROWNED THOSE KIDS, STARTING WITH THE YOUNGEST! i hope she gets what she deserves, a painful death by the hands of someone with nothing to lose.

rehabilate? i'll do it, by means of what she did to those poor children of hers.

just my STRONG, STRONG OPINION.

S'okay, 2Mins, post strong opinions away. With a few exceptions, no one seems to get awful in discussion on derbytrail. For which I am grateful!

What makes it different is that a child molester is molesting children because that's how he (or she, I'll be fair) gets his/her rocks off. A man shooting his cheating wife is acting in a fit of rage. Andrea Yates heard voices in her head telling her she was saving the children from Satan by killing them. She really thought she was doing the right thing by killing them. Whether her mental illness was genetic or brought about by circumstance, I don't know. She was (is) a very religious woman, and to her Hell is a very real place. And her holy book has many instances of major characters hearing God speak to them, and then there she was, hearing voices herself (which many, many, many people suffering from severe depression do). How was she to know it wasn't God speaking to her?

And here's something else-- it is very, very difficult to dupe a jury into thinking someone is insane when he or she is not. Many serial killers have tried it and failed. Psychologists and psychiatrists aren't stupid-- they can tell the difference between someone who is really ill and someone who is faking. And the only way the prosecution could guarantee their conviction in the first trial was by presenting false evidence. Let's think about that-- the prosecution, the state of Texas, felt it necessary to LIE TO THE JURY in order to convince those 12 men and women that Andrea Yates was sane. And it worked, and thank God for justice that the lie was discovered. And without that lie, 12 different men and women found her incapable of comprehending her own actions.

And if she is ever "cured," I guarantee you she will be waiting for death to take her, too. Because I fully believe she loved her children, just as I believe she was too sick to understand what was happening to her sanity, or how to get out of the situation she was in (though I don't know, as do none of us, I can't help but believe her home situation contributed to her illness). In some ways, putting her to death might have been more merciful to her. But not as punishment for her crime. She didn't understand what she was doing. The child molesters, the man shooting his wife, for that matter the man who shot his 13-year-old daughter when she tried to abort his child (I just learned that lovely story this week)-- they know they do wrong. Andrea Yates didn't. She just didn't.

[somerfrost]

Originally Posted by GenuineRisk

S'okay, 2Mins, post strong opinions away. With a few exceptions, no one seems to get awful in discussion on derbytrail. For which I am grateful!

What makes it different is that a child molester is molesting children because that's how he (or she, I'll be fair) gets his/her rocks off. A man shooting his cheating wife is acting in a fit of rage. Andrea Yates heard voices in her head telling her she was saving the children from Satan by killing them. She really thought she was doing the right thing by killing them. Whether her mental illness was genetic or brought about by circumstance, I don't know. She was (is) a very religious woman, and to her Hell is a very real place. And her holy book has many instances of major characters hearing God speak to them, and then there she was, hearing voices herself (which many, many, many people suffering from severe depression do). How was she to know it wasn't God speaking to her?

And here's something else-- it is very, very difficult to dupe a jury into thinking someone is insane when he or she is not. Many serial killers have tried it and failed. Psychologists and psychiatrists aren't stupid-- they can tell the difference between someone who is really ill and someone who is faking. And the only way the prosecution could guarantee their conviction in the first trial was by presenting false evidence. Let's think about that-- the prosecution, the state of Texas, felt it necessary to LIE TO THE JURY in order to convince those 12 men and women that Andrea Yates was sane. And it worked, and thank God for justice that the lie was discovered. And without that lie, 12 different men and women found her incapable of comprehending her own actions.

And if she is ever "cured," I guarantee you she will be waiting for death to take her, too. Because I fully believe she loved her children, just as I believe she was too sick to understand what was happening to her sanity, or how to get out of the situation she was in (though I don't know, as do none of us, I can't help but believe her home situation contributed to her illness). In some ways, putting her to death might have been more merciful to her. But not as punishment for her crime. She didn't understand what she was doing. The child molesters, the man shooting his wife, for that matter the man who shot his 13-year-old daughter when she tried to abort his child (I just learned that lovely story this week)-- they know they do wrong. Andrea Yates didn't. She just didn't.

Good answer GR....I have little to add except for the fact that mental illness is simply not understood in our culture. A person gets cancer or has a stroke and we are (usually) compassionate, understanding and caring. Someone is psychotic, depressed or delusional and we think it's somehow their fault or they are play-acting, or somehow a "bad" person. I don't want to offend anyone but it's ignorance like that holding mankind back! I guess we've come somewhat forward from the days when a mentally ill person was thought to be possessed by some mythological "devil" and tortured to death...but then, today, I read posts like on this board calling for some pound of flesh and I think...you never know when to expect the Inquisition! Oral Roberts talks to his god and he's a great man with his own college...Joan of Arc was burned at the stake, and most folks today are judged insane...doesn't seem to be a pattern! All I know is this...command auditory hallucinations are not usually a good thing but theyt are very very powerful to those experiencing them...I'm not sure how folks can judge others without the experience to do so?!

[GenuineRisk]

Originally Posted by somerfrost

Good answer GR....I have little to add except for the fact that mental illness is simply not understood in our culture. A person gets cancer or has a stroke and we are (usually) compassionate, understanding and caring. Someone is psychotic, depressed or delusional and we think it's somehow their fault or they are play-acting, or somehow a "bad" person. I don't want to offend anyone but it's ignorance like that holding mankind back! I guess we've come somewhat forward from the days when a mentally ill person was thought to be possessed by some mythological "devil" and tortured to death...but then, today, I read posts like on this board calling for some pound of flesh and I think...you never know when to expect the Inquisition! Oral Roberts talks to his god and he's a great man with his own college...Joan of Arc was burned at the stake, and most folks today are judged insane...doesn't seem to be a pattern! All I know is this...command auditory hallucinations are not usually a good thing but theyt are very very powerful to those experiencing them...I'm not sure how folks can judge others without the experience to do so?!

True, true. If there is any good at all to be found out of this horrible, awful tragedy, it's that post-partum depression has received much attention as a result and perhaps women who are suffering, even if not as severely as Andrea Yates, will be able to get help. Even so, mental illness is still poorly understood in this culture-- you are so right about that.

[Downthestretch55]

Originally Posted by somerfrost

Good answer GR....I have little to add except for the fact that mental illness is simply not understood in our culture. A person gets cancer or has a stroke and we are (usually) compassionate, understanding and caring. Someone is psychotic, depressed or delusional and we think it's somehow their fault or they are play-acting, or somehow a "bad" person. I don't want to offend anyone but it's ignorance like that holding mankind back! I guess we've come somewhat forward from the days when a mentally ill person was thought to be possessed by some mythological "devil" and tortured to death...but then, today, I read posts like on this board calling for some pound of flesh and I think...you never know when to expect the Inquisition! Oral Roberts talks to his god and he's a great man with his own college...Joan of Arc was burned at the stake, and most folks today are judged insane...doesn't seem to be a pattern! All I know is this...command auditory hallucinations are not usually a good thing but theyt are very very powerful to those experiencing them...I'm not sure how folks can judge others without the experience to do so?!

Somerfrost and Genuine Risk,
You've both put out caring and compassionate insights to "mental illness".
I'll just put in my two pennies worth...
This is an illness.
Many people have no understanding as there aren't physical manifestations, other than the tragedy of actions caused by the "demons".

A wise man once said, "Judge not lest you be judged."
I could supply His name but those that wish to judge might have an experience reading about Him. He can be found in the New Testament.

btw...He also cast out demons.

[2MinsToPost]

well yeah, I don't have the background that you two have so my opinion is based strictly on EMOTION and not Facts as they lie. I see your point and it is well received. Thank goodness these days I am open to learning and understanding and not black and white.

[Downthestretch55]

Originally Posted by 2MinsToPost

well yeah, I don't have the background that you two have so my opinion is based strictly on EMOTION and not Facts as they lie. I see your point and it is well received. Thank goodness these days I am open to learning and understanding and not black and white.

Curt,
Let me tell you...I was angry as HELL about the deaths of those kids...her own children!!! My own emotions told me to say, "Kill her the same way she killed her kids."
Then, I heard a small voice inside that said, "There's more to this than you understand, Wayne."

So, it's really not for me to judge.
The more I see, the less black or white exists...only shades of grey.

DTS

The jury realized the torture the entire family is going thru. This lady probably wants to die on alternate days anyway. Nothing worse could be done to all involved. Jury is giving her a chance to live without constant suffering. She will suffer for the rest of her life, maybe it will be tolerable some days. One can only hope. A totally sad situation.

[irishtrekker]

I found it remarkable that her husband supported the ruling, too -- there aren't many people in the middle of things like this who could see the "bigger picture" and recognize what's legitimately best for all involved.

I worked in prisons, too, although in more of an outreach/tutoring capacity and not for nearly as long as you, Somer...but it's amazing how much your perspective changes when you spend time behind those walls. I have a really difficult time explaining it to people who've never been there...but my views on incarceration are considerably more thought-out and nuanced than they would ever be if I hadn't seen it. It's one of the most hidden-away parts of society, and I'm not sure that's right.

[GenuineRisk]

Originally Posted by 2MinsToPost

well yeah, I don't have the background that you two have so my opinion is based strictly on EMOTION and not Facts as they lie. I see your point and it is well received. Thank goodness these days I am open to learning and understanding and not black and white.

And your compassion for those poor kids was obvious in every line of your email-- your rage at their deaths was completely understandable. For a lot of us, mental illness can be a very hard thing to wrap one's thoughts around because it's so completely outside our own realm of experience.

And life does seem to be one long learning process, doesn't it? For all of us.

[somerfrost]

Originally Posted by irishtrekker

I found it remarkable that her husband supported the ruling, too -- there aren't many people in the middle of things like this who could see the "bigger picture" and recognize what's legitimately best for all involved.

I worked in prisons, too, although in more of an outreach/tutoring capacity and not for nearly as long as you, Somer...but it's amazing how much your perspective changes when you spend time behind those walls. I have a really difficult time explaining it to people who've never been there...but my views on incarceration are considerably more thought-out and nuanced than they would ever be if I hadn't seen it. It's one of the most hidden-away parts of society, and I'm not sure that's right.

I agree totally! People hear about the cable TV and the "special treatment" and some of that does indeed go on and is frustrating but the big picture...the one where decent folks are turned into animals, isn't seen. Loss of freedom is the price one pays for violating the laws of society but subjecting folks to brutality should never be acceptable! There are a lot of good people who work in our prisons, it takes a strong will to step through those gates every day...but the environment is NOT one of rehabilitation but learning to be more vicious, more uncaring, more dangerous...and when those folks get out, and most do...we've done nothing but created our own monsters! And sending mentally ill folks into that world....well, it's simply wrong!

[Seattleallstar]

Just caught up on this thread, ive been occupied posting other garbage. I'll try to stop Frosty. Anyways,it is well known among the mental health community that Andrea Yates had a long documented history of schizophrenia before she ever drowned her children. She was also highly delusional at the time of the crime. This is not like the ****ing Twinkie defense, this is legitimate. I feel much better that her initial trial verdict of guilty is now modified. It isn't that she just had postpartum depression she had untreated schizophrenia. Postpartum depression is an afterthought. I don't think she should go free guys, but I do believe she is very different than most people who commit murder.

[somerfrost]

Originally Posted by Seattleallstar

Just caught up on this thread, ive been occupied posting other garbage. I'll try to stop Frosty. Anyways,it is well known among the mental health community that Andrea Yates had a long documented history of schizophrenia before she ever drowned her children. She was also highly delusional at the time of the crime. This is not like the ****ing Twinkie defense, this is legitimate. I feel much better that her initial trial verdict of guilty is now modified. It isn't that she just had postpartum depression she had untreated schizophrenia. Postpartum depression is an afterthought. I don't think she should go free guys, but I do believe she is very different than most people who commit murder.

I agree Jerry....we can't generalize simply because some people have used a bogus insanity defense in the past. Gotta remember the only reason it sometimes works is that the vast majority of the time, the symptoms are real!