Raven's Pass Retired

Soaring Softly · #1 11-08-2008, 05:03 AM

One would think Raven's Pass would be just the kind of horse Sheikh Mohammed would want to win his DWC and then go for a repeat in the Breeders Cup, especially when it's going to be run again at Santa Anita. I don't get it.

While I don't like it, I think I understand his retiring all those 3yos from last year to Darley Jonabell. He clearly wants to establish breeding dominance all over the world (Pacific Rim isn't going to happen btw), and if you want to do that, you certainly have to sink your teeth into Kentucky, especially when the stud market has recently been high on young stallions covering their first 2 or 3 books.

But Raven's Pass I don't understand. Why would he retire this 3yo Breeders Cup Classic winner to his Stud in Ireland? Raven's Pass is an outstanding grass miler in Europe, but he stretched out on the main track (Pro-Ride) at 10 furlongs to win the second-richest race in the world. Why would he go to stud in Ireland?

And why wouldn't Raven's Pass be pointed toward a repeat at the same venue where he won so impressively? If he were to win the Dubai World Cup and then repeat in the Breeders Cup Classic, he would be a huge stallion prospect in North America. But he's retired and goes to Ireland.

I just had a thought...maybe Raven's Pass is retired, and he doesn't stand in Kentucky in order to protect Street Cry.........just a thought.

Bobby Fischer · #2 11-08-2008, 09:54 AM

ROFLZ

He was 2nd best to navigator in the turf mile division.
He looked physically 3rd best at the Breeders cup (curlin,navigator)

weak

King Glorious · #3 11-08-2008, 10:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Soaring Softly

One would think Raven's Pass would be just the kind of horse Sheikh Mohammed would want to win his DWC and then go for a repeat in the Breeders Cup, especially when it's going to be run again at Santa Anita. I don't get it.

While I don't like it, I think I understand his retiring all those 3yos from last year to Darley Jonabell. He clearly wants to establish breeding dominance all over the world (Pacific Rim isn't going to happen btw), and if you want to do that, you certainly have to sink your teeth into Kentucky, especially when the stud market has recently been high on young stallions covering their first 2 or 3 books.

But Raven's Pass I don't understand. Why would he retire this 3yo Breeders Cup Classic winner to his Stud in Ireland? Raven's Pass is an outstanding grass miler in Europe, but he stretched out on the main track (Pro-Ride) at 10 furlongs to win the second-richest race in the world. Why would he go to stud in Ireland?

And why wouldn't Raven's Pass be pointed toward a repeat at the same venue where he won so impressively? If he were to win the Dubai World Cup and then repeat in the Breeders Cup Classic, he would be a huge stallion prospect in North America. But he's retired and goes to Ireland.

I just had a thought...maybe Raven's Pass is retired, and he doesn't stand in Kentucky in order to protect Street Cry.........just a thought.

The breeding side of the game is not something that interests me so I don't pay too much attention to it so I may be way off here but that's never stopped me from giving my opinion before so here goes.

First, Raven's Pass won on a turf course masquerading as a dirt one when he won at Santa Anita. That win does absolutely nothing as far as indicating how well he'd handle a real dirt course in Dubai. Two totally different animals.

Second, it's always been my belief that horses reach a peak in their value (as far as stud value) and keeping them on the track to win more races (or lose them) won't change that value. I've had to change that belief somewhat now because of the introduction of synthetics. It used to be that once a horse had proven he could win on both surfaces, there was no further need to have him prove anything. Now, a horse like Raven's Pass still can prove himself on dirt.

Third, while Raven's Pass can still prove himself on dirt, I think that the Sheikh is not really interested in that. Remember, the rest of the world still runs on grass, the United States is slowly moving totally towards synthetics, and perhaps more important, the track they are building in Dubai is going to be synthetic also. Since he's proven himself on it already, that may be enough for them.

Danzig · #4 11-08-2008, 12:00 PM

as far as protecting street cry, he doesn't need protection. he's stamped himself as a very good sire.
raven's pass would be better off heading exactly where they're sending him, far more demand for a horse like him then there would be here.

brockguy · #5 11-08-2008, 12:31 PM

There's nothing wrong with standing in Ireland - he will be very well supported here...

For next year Darley seemed to have rotated their stallions to different areas, so in 2010 or 2011, it wouldnt surprise me to see Ravens in England and/or the US..

blackthroatedwind · #6 11-08-2008, 12:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by brockguy

There's nothing wrong with standing in Ireland ..

I've been to Ireland.....I beg to differ.

brockguy · #7 11-08-2008, 12:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by blackthroatedwind

I've been to Ireland.....I beg to differ.

Bobby Fischer · #8 11-08-2008, 01:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by King Glorious

First, Raven's Pass won on a turf course masquerading as a dirt one when he won at Santa Anita. That win does absolutely nothing as far as indicating how well he'd handle a real dirt course in Dubai.

yea exactly

1. Raven's Pass has ZERO dirt form whatsoever.

2. For all we know his performance on the pro ride against his equal or superior -Navigator and the rest who were not grade1 turf horses(including Curlin), could have been typical of a top class turf miler. For all we know Goldikova would have beat them all, or any number of top class european turf milers from the past 5 years would have run faster over that course.
Forever Together could have had a shot? who knows...

3. ALL we do know is that Raven's Pass was very likely one of the top 3 turf milers in the world.

4. Elusive Quality is currently fashionable.

5. shamps illy zay

Soaring Softly · #9 11-09-2008, 12:08 AM

[quote=brockguy]There's nothing wrong with standing in Ireland - he will be very well supported here...

I never meant to demean standing at stud in Ireland! Lord knows, one of the greatest stallions of the modern era stood there before his recent pensioning. Sadlers Wells is now the sire of more than 300 stakes winners!

Ireland is definitely not the problem for me with Raven's Pass. I just wonder about the thinking when he wins the Breeders Cup Classic as a 3yo on the Pro-Ride at Santa Anita, and then is retired to stud in Ireland when the Breeders Cup is running next year on that same Santa Anita Pro-Ride. He's got a pedigree that suits the main track, and if he were to win the Classic again in 2009, his value in America would be huge.

I guess I'm just sad to see Raven's Pass retired. Sheikh Mo didn't ask for my advice.....silly guy.

Raven's Pass could maybe have been a great one.....I really believe that.

It's a shame that he's not going to get the chance to prove me wrong!

Pedigree Ann · #10 11-09-2008, 10:42 AM

The shame is that Raven's Pass may just be coming into his best form. His half-brother Gygistar was good at 2, not so good at 3, and best at 4 and 5. Henry's advantage earlier in the year may have been due to earlier maturity and he may not get any better than he has been this year, so I don't mind him retiring at the this point. But not being able to see Raven's Pass at his best (potentially) as a 4yo is up there with not seeing Holy Roman Emperor at 3 - a decision made because the breeding 'tail' is wagging the racing 'dog'.

blackthroatedwind · #11 11-09-2008, 10:52 AM

Gygistar was never good.

miraja2 · #12 11-09-2008, 11:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pedigree Ann

His half-brother Gygistar was good at 2, not so good at 3, and best at 4 and 5.

Am I thinking of the wrong horse or forgetting something important? I thought he won the Kings Bishop and the Dwyer at age 3 and then never won a big race as an older horse.
Maybe I'm forgetting something, but if not, what makes you say that he was better as an older horse than as a 3yo?

Danzig · #13 11-09-2008, 11:21 AM

i'd think his best was at three, and then his second best year was at six.

Danzig · #14 11-09-2008, 11:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by miraja2

Am I thinking of the wrong horse or forgetting something important? I thought he won the Kings Bishop and the Dwyer at age 3 and then never won a big race as an older horse.
Maybe I'm forgetting something, but if not, what makes you say that he was better as an older horse than as a 3yo?

no, you've got the right one. he won a gr 1 and 2 gr 2's at three, and managed one gr 3 win at six. definitely best his second season of racing.

blackthroatedwind · #15 11-09-2008, 12:29 PM

I'm sure Pedigree Ann will return contritely.

miraja2 · #16 11-09-2008, 01:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by blackthroatedwind

I'm sure Pedigree Ann will return contritely.

I think she probably meant to say Gigawatt instead of Gygistar.
Gygistar and Raven's Pass aren't actually even related, so it was probably just a typo on her part.

However, I'm not sure the argument has a lot more validity with Gigawatt.

blackthroatedwind · #17 11-09-2008, 02:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by miraja2

I think she probably meant to say Gigawatt instead of Gygistar.
Gygistar and Raven's Pass aren't actually even related, so it was probably just a typo on her part.

However, I'm not sure the argument has a lot more validity with Gigawatt.

You're right....about all of it. Though, Fearless Leader may disagree.

RolloTomasi · #18 11-09-2008, 05:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by blackthroatedwind

You're right....about all of it. Though, Fearless Leader may disagree.

That was a classic hit-and-run post. Not only do we get the obligatory pedantic mutterings, but the whole basis of it lies on a glaring botch of bloodlines from someone with the word "Pedigree" in their screenname.

The best part for me, however, has to be the justification for Henrythenavigator's early retirement from racing:

Henry's advantage earlier in the year may have been due to earlier maturity and he may not get any better than he has been this year

Yeah. Cuz no one is interested in seeing him run again if he can't top his 4-time Group 1-winning campaign. Don't need him around.

Completely irresponsible, yet the board is all the better for it.

Pedigree Ann · #19 11-11-2008, 12:33 PM

Hey, I was off in the Canary Islands doing it from memory. Gygistar and Gigawatt have a lot of "g"s in them and the same number of sylables, after all. Like when I meant Itsallinthechase and typed Itsallgreektome (they start the same). You'll be middle-aged sometime, too, you know, and your memory won't work as well as it did when you were 25, either.

2000 GIGAWATT,Dkbbr,c,Wild Again 6 39 8 4 3 512,640

At 2 Won Display S. -L (135,625), 2nd Grey Breeders' Cup S. -G2 (265,250)
At 4 Won Louisiana Handicap (Dec) (O) (60,000)
At 5 2nd Independence Handicap (O) (50,770), 3rd Mineshaft Handicap -G3
(100,000)
At 6 Won Miami Mile Breeders' Cup Handicap -G3 (150,000), 3rd Gulf Coast
Classic S. -L (75,000)

blackthroatedwind · #20 11-11-2008, 01:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pedigree Ann

Hey, I was off in the Canary Islands doing it from memory. Gygistar and Gigawatt have a lot of "g"s in them and the same number of sylables, after all. Like when I meant Itsallinthechase and typed Itsallgreektome (they start the same). You'll be middle-aged sometime, too, you know, and your memory won't work as well as it did when you were 25, either.

2000 GIGAWATT,Dkbbr,c,Wild Again 6 39 8 4 3 512,640

At 2 Won Display S. -L (135,625), 2nd Grey Breeders' Cup S. -G2 (265,250)
At 4 Won Louisiana Handicap (Dec) (O) (60,000)
At 5 2nd Independence Handicap (O) (50,770), 3rd Mineshaft Handicap -G3
(100,000)
At 6 Won Miami Mile Breeders' Cup Handicap -G3 (150,000), 3rd Gulf Coast
Classic S. -L (75,000)

You were in the Canary Islands?????????????????????

Me too!!!!!! Why didn't you let me know?