Farewell to The Ohio Derby

[Ogygian]

I have to admit when I first read this I was pissed, then I realized that the Ohio Derby is not what is used to be due to Thistledown not being what it used to be. I remember the days of Lost Code, Broad Brush, King Glorious, Demons Begone... then fast forward to a few years to Skip Away. Do to where I lived (Erie, Pa) it was the biggest race of the year that I could see with out driving too far...Commodore-Erie Downs was a dump...so at the time it was a thrill to go see the Derby. Back then the track was packed, the card was good...Rose Debartolo, met D Watne...
In recent years the I have watched the decline of Thistledown...moving the Derby all over the calendar...the past few years I wouldn't even go, which is aweful. The place is like a giant homeless shelter in the worst part of town, not to mention the quality of racing is pathetic.
A few weeks back, Steve had a caller from Cleveland say he go to Thistledowns to go "upstairs" to bet on the "high quality" racing and ignore the low level horses that run at the track. And there is where he hit the problem...no one wants to go to the track to watch a poor product, in the worst part of town, and in my opinion it is a lot easier to handicap quality racing then that junk. Hence we never see a great pick 4 play at Thistle or Retama in the selections.
I'm not sure what the answer is, it is aggravating and embarrassing.

[sdjcom]

if thistle closes maybe river downs can continue the race, and get a sponsorship to add some purse money to drawn some big time horses again.

[TheSpyder]

First of all, have to give a shout out to Brents Prince!

I grew up there and understand what you're saying, as did many on this board surprizingly enough. Remember the guy that always shouted at Rini?

Anyway, first, it's far from being a bad part of town, you're wa off there. Certainly not what it use to be as the pinnicle when the mall opened accross the street.

I do agree the cards are pitiful not so much due to quality, which has always been low, but rather not having enough stock to have full fields.

My friend still goes there many times a week and says TV's are out, lights are not being replaced, and the atmosphere is gloomy at best. The future looks certain if they do not get slots or some injection of money.

It was fun in the old days. I practically grew up there.

Spyder

[Indian Charlie]

You're from drErie?

And you admit this publicly?

Originally Posted by Ogygian

I have to admit when I first read this I was pissed, then I realized that the Ohio Derby is not what is used to be due to Thistledown not being what it used to be. I remember the days of Lost Code, Broad Brush, King Glorious, Demons Begone... then fast forward to a few years to Skip Away. Do to where I lived (Erie, Pa) it was the biggest race of the year that I could see with out driving too far...Commodore-Erie Downs was a dump...so at the time it was a thrill to go see the Derby. Back then the track was packed, the card was good...Rose Debartolo, met D Watne...
In recent years the I have watched the decline of Thistledown...moving the Derby all over the calendar...the past few years I wouldn't even go, which is aweful. The place is like a giant homeless shelter in the worst part of town, not to mention the quality of racing is pathetic.
A few weeks back, Steve had a caller from Cleveland say he go to Thistledowns to go "upstairs" to bet on the "high quality" racing and ignore the low level horses that run at the track. And there is where he hit the problem...no one wants to go to the track to watch a poor product, in the worst part of town, and in my opinion it is a lot easier to handicap quality racing then that junk. Hence we never see a great pick 4 play at Thistle or Retama in the selections.
I'm not sure what the answer is, it is aggravating and embarrassing.

[Ogygian]

It looks like a bomb went off around there, a war-zone,it is run down and an absolute shame. Lets put it this way, of all the places to raise a family in Cleveland...North Randall would have a very very hard time making the list. It makes you feel like you have to roll your windows up and lock your doors just driving thru. Now if the track was on the westside somewhere it may have been a different story...
I can't say I remember the guy that shouted Rini...at the time i was only 15 maybe...I just remember it being so much nicer then Erie/Commodore Downs...

[2MinsToPost]

River Downs is the best Ohio has to offer, and that is little at this point. They are still trying to push slots on the voters, and now with Penn National involved and there getting some support in the Capitol, who knows.

River Downs is a nice diamond in the rough, and I think in great part the reason why is its location. See Thistle and Beulah. River is far removed (not that far but far enough) from "the element".

[The Indomitable DrugS]

I've been to many Ohio Derby's and many Prince Of Wales stakes at Fort Erie.

Shame to see them both go.

[philcski]

Originally Posted by The Indomitable DrugS

I've been to many Ohio Derby's and many Prince Of Wales stakes at Fort Erie.

Shame to see them both go.

Prince Of Wales/Ft Erie may not go... as per the Buffalo News. The Ft Erie website seems to have live racing dates listed and the Prince of Wales Stakes as July 12th. Went there many times as well, back in the day it was much better racing than Finger Lakes- now not so much.

[tjfla]

Ya really not a big loss. Was like the 3rd string 3yr old every year

[Kasept]

This has nothing to do with the quality of the Ohio Derby... They're suspending it for the year and using the money to support the purses for the horsemen on the grounds. It's the right thing to do instead of giving that money to out of towners that come in one day for the graded stake, take the money and leave.

They can re-evaluate next year and bring it back if things are better without losing the grading.

[Ogygian]

Originally Posted by Kasept

This has nothing to do with the quality of the Ohio Derby... They're suspending it for the year and using the money to support the purses for the horsemen on the grounds. It's the right thing to do instead of giving that money to out of towners that come in one day for the graded stake, take the money and leave.

They can re-evaluate next year and bring it back if things are better without losing the grading.

That is good to hear...I have a question though...wouldn't it be better to cut a few days off the meet, maybe have bigger fields, then use that purse money from the days the track isn't running to run the Ohio Derby. How often do they actually cancel a stakes race, then bring it back?

[westcoastinvader]

Originally Posted by Ogygian

I have to admit when I first read this I was pissed, then I realized that the Ohio Derby is not what is used to be due to Thistledown not being what it used to be. I remember the days of Lost Code, Broad Brush, King Glorious, Demons Begone... then fast forward to a few years to Skip Away. Do to where I lived (Erie, Pa) it was the biggest race of the year that I could see with out driving too far...Commodore-Erie Downs was a dump...so at the time it was a thrill to go see the Derby. Back then the track was packed, the card was good...Rose Debartolo, met D Watne...
In recent years the I have watched the decline of Thistledown...moving the Derby all over the calendar...the past few years I wouldn't even go, which is aweful. The place is like a giant homeless shelter in the worst part of town, not to mention the quality of racing is pathetic.
A few weeks back, Steve had a caller from Cleveland say he go to Thistledowns to go "upstairs" to bet on the "high quality" racing and ignore the low level horses that run at the track. And there is where he hit the problem...no one wants to go to the track to watch a poor product, in the worst part of town, and in my opinion it is a lot easier to handicap quality racing then that junk. Hence we never see a great pick 4 play at Thistle or Retama in the selections.
I'm not sure what the answer is, it is aggravating and embarrassing.

Maybe Dennis "the menace" Kucinich should spend more time worrying about his home district than how the media loved "Yankees" are dealing with tax breaks?


As other posters have noted, Thistledown and The Ohio Derby have always been a "down on the farm" baseball team analogy for me in terms of thoroughbred racing.

And I'm from Cleveland, and an unabashed and probably longer term real thoroughbred fan than most here.


True story, a couple days after my mother died about 14 years ago, I stopped by the track for the first time in maybe 10 years. I was on my way to Cleveland Hopkins to catch a flight for work for the week on a contract in Hartford CT.

I only had about 90 minutes of action before I had to keep going from Thistledown to catch the flight.

I never really got along too well with my Mother. I'm sure most can write the same.

But in keeping with the true story, in my last race I could bet and still make the flight I looked up and asked if she could assist with my wager in her recently departed state.

I ended up with a $20 exacta box that paid a little over $80 on a $2 ticket.

I made my flight with about $1,000 in profits for my one hour or so at Thistledown that day.

True.

I've asked for her help on later occasions to no betting avail.

I think she got lucky that day.

[westcoastinvader]

Originally Posted by TheSpyder

First of all, have to give a shout out to Brents Prince!

I grew up there and understand what you're saying, as did many on this board surprizingly enough. Remember the guy that always shouted at Rini?

Anyway, first, it's far from being a bad part of town, you're wa off there. Certainly not what it use to be as the pinnicle when the mall opened accross the street.

I do agree the cards are pitiful not so much due to quality, which has always been low, but rather not having enough stock to have full fields.

My friend still goes there many times a week and says TV's are out, lights are not being replaced, and the atmosphere is gloomy at best. The future looks certain if they do not get slots or some injection of money.

It was fun in the old days. I practically grew up there.

Spyder

And as a fellow Clevelander, I lay blame for the demise of Northeastern Ohio thoroughbred racing firmly at the door of Eddie DeBartolo.

He, of San Francisco 49'er ownership "glory years" fame.

DeBartolo bought and trashed the legacy of every track in Northeastern Ohio as he assembled his "shopping mall" empire and tore down and eliminated Ohio tracks from the mid-1960's on.


Not that Ohio tracks ever had much of a legacy, but the DeBartolo family assured they did not.

[Suffolk Shippers]

Originally Posted by Ogygian

That is good to hear...I have a question though...wouldn't it be better to cut a few days off the meet, maybe have bigger fields, then use that purse money from the days the track isn't running to run the Ohio Derby. How often do they actually cancel a stakes race, then bring it back?

I think the best parallel for you to look at is the Pimlico Special or the Massachusetts Handicap at Suffolk Downs. Both PIM and SUF have cancelled these signature races intermittently through out the last ten years and brought them back when they felt they could.

In the 2000's, SUF has run the Mass Cap in 2000-2002, off in 2003, back in 2004, off in 2005 and 2006, and back for 2007 and 2008. Of course, you lose the races graded status after it's been off for awhile. I believe the Mass Cap is back at GIII this year. So, it's more common than you think.

The last few editions of the Mass Cap have been enjoyable, it's always nice to see better quality flesh run on the grounds. However, like Steve said, it's essentially just a money grab for out of towners. The local strings really can't compete with them...for example, last year Zito won two of the big races on Mass Cap day (at least), and some other non-Suffolk trainers shipped in to grab the money, like Anthony Dutrow and others.

Eliminating these money grab races at lower level tracks once in awhile preserves the money in the modest purses the local strings run for, and it's done more as an appreciation to the local horseman in leaner times. The tracks know they would be nothing without the local strings that patronize year to year. It's better to keep those folks happy and afloat and use the $500,000 worth of purses from an Ohio Derby, Mass Cap, Pim Special, etc to buoy the local purses instead from time to time.

[philcski]

Somewhat lost in the shuffle...

the Ohio Derby WILL now be run this year. Oct. 3rd, with a purse of $150k (the minimum for a G2).

http://www.thistledown.com/NR/rdonly...ioDerbyNom.pdf

http://www.drf.com/news/article/106594.html

[DaTruth]

Originally Posted by philcski

Somewhat lost in the shuffle...

the Ohio Derby WILL now be run this year. Oct. 3rd, with a purse of $150k (the minimum for a G2).

http://www.thistledown.com/NR/rdonly...ioDerbyNom.pdf

http://www.drf.com/news/article/106594.html

For $150k, the race won't attract much. It wouldn't be a bad spot for a decent 3yo filly as they could pick up some easy Grade 2 blacktype.

[westcoastinvader]

Originally Posted by philcski

Somewhat lost in the shuffle...

the Ohio Derby WILL now be run this year. Oct. 3rd, with a purse of $150k (the minimum for a G2).

http://www.thistledown.com/NR/rdonly...ioDerbyNom.pdf

http://www.drf.com/news/article/106594.html

I guess that's according to script....Ohio.

:-)

[otisotisotis]

Originally Posted by 2MinsToPost

River Downs is the best Ohio has to offer, and that is little at this point. They are still trying to push slots on the voters, and now with Penn National involved and there getting some support in the Capitol, who knows.

River Downs is a nice diamond in the rough, and I think in great part the reason why is its location. See Thistle and Beulah. River is far removed (not that far but far enough) from "the element".

Location is beautiful, quality is ugly. But you would be amazed at the weekend crowds they get, with people actually tailgating on the front row of the parking lot that has a front row view of the top of the stretch. I will always clamor they should put up lights and go to night racing.

[2MinsToPost]

Originally Posted by otisotisotis

Location is beautiful, quality is ugly. But you would be amazed at the weekend crowds they get, with people actually tailgating on the front row of the parking lot that has a front row view of the top of the stretch. I will always clamor they should put up lights and go to night racing.

Yeah I was there Saturday and the blacktop was packed front to back. Great idea you have, night racing. Only thing that I could see as a problem would be next door, Riverbend. They do host a lot of concerts, and they almost all are in the evening.

I really do cherish that track for its ambience.

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by philcski

Somewhat lost in the shuffle...

the Ohio Derby WILL now be run this year. Oct. 3rd, with a purse of $150k (the minimum for a G2).

http://www.thistledown.com/NR/rdonly...ioDerbyNom.pdf

http://www.drf.com/news/article/106594.html

Honestly if the state wants the race to run, THEY should fund it instead of running over the top of contractual agreements. Running it under these circumstances is a waste of time and money. I realize that the 5 cards eliminated will be crap racing but it is a not a good thing to have a govt agency tell private businesses how to spend its money. Pass the damn slots (with the pruses getting a reasonable amount), give your states racing business a chance to compete against surrounding slot tracks (except naturally the bluegrass state) and you wont have to worry about cancelling the freakin Ohio Derby. And while you are at it either further fund the recruiting slush fund for Tressel or stop playing USC.