Gotta Love VIC S

[the_fat_man]

"to the backstretch they run and Rainbow Goose and Backbackbackgone are going very fast and Rainbow Goose is going to outfoot the sprinter early"

Cool, calm, collected, as his charge ****s up yet another ride (two in a row on RG).

Take him to the woodshed, Vic

Then, have him take a look at BJ Hernandez' ride in the 4th at CD and appreciate how it's done.

[cmorioles]

Contrary to popular belief, most horses do what they want to do pace wise, not what the jockey wants them to do. The horse was being held probably as much as possible without totally discouraging him.

[the_fat_man]

REALLY?

This is the same horse that broke badly last out and didn't have a problem rating at the back of the pack. Go figure.

I don't have a problem with a rank horse that needs the lead. But this horse proved last time out, WITH THE SAME JOCK, that it can rate. This was just a brutally bad ride and Vic's call reflected that.

It appears that Carava has kicked Rosario off most (or all) of his horses. Bet he regretted keeping him on this one.

[cmorioles]

I didn't realize all horses act and feel the same every day.

Honestly, watching the race TODAY, does it look like he is urging him to run when he takes the lead?

Horses = bicycles
Track = velodrome
Jockey = bicylist

Chant the above.

Sad thing is the Fatman has a lot of
interesting stuff when he loses his bike.

[the_fat_man]

If you think that Rosario did his best restraining this horse and that any other jock would've put in the same ride, I have no problem with that. My feeling is that Gomez or Bejarano or BJ Hernandez (among others) wins with this horse today.

[cmorioles]

Originally Posted by the_fat_man

If you think that Rosario did his best restraining this horse and that any other jock would've put in the same ride, I have no problem with that. My feeling is that Gomez or Bejarano or BJ Hernandez (among others) wins with this horse today.

Others might have done a little better, he probably isn't the strongest rider in the world. I was just saying it isn't like he was urging him on. In any case, I don't think any rider was getting that horse home today.

Originally Posted by the_fat_man

If you think that Rosario did his best restraining this horse and that any other jock would've put in the same ride, I have no problem with that. My feeling is that Gomez or Bejarano or BJ Hernandez (among others) wins with this horse today.

You're right. He sucks. Anything else?

[the_fat_man]

Originally Posted by cmorioles

Others might have done a little better, he probably isn't the strongest rider in the world. I was just saying it isn't like he was urging him on. In any case, I don't think any rider was getting that horse home today.

I guess we'll just have to wait and see what happens. I have a hard time believing that if he gets a trip similar to the winner's that he's not there at the end.

This is an example of the kind of (all too frequent) **** that I can only explain by assuming that those involved are challenged. I have a race where a horse has sprint speed and another is stretching out (2nd lifetime start) from 6F, and the former is left to chase and bid at a horse that's cutting back from a route where it'd rated at the end of the pack (after a slow break) and the latter is able to fall into sitting a perfect trip. Ha ha ha

[the_fat_man]

Originally Posted by v j stauffer

You're right. He sucks. Anything else?

Vic

don't be pissed. By the tone of your voice I know you were thinking exactly the same thing when he took off around the 1st turn.

[Bobby Fischer]

It's hard to teach grown men athletes a new way to do things.
This type of thing wouldn't be that bad because it's mainly understanding that needless pace duels will hurt you, and making an adjustment. The hardest thing is the EGO issue.


Fats would be a good adviser to a team with a receptive jockey capable of applying strategy.

[Zaf]

Joel is a great young rider, cut the dude a little slack. Horses are not machines.

[Bobby Fischer]

it's been in vogue lately to let a rank horse have all the freedom in the world rather than attempt to settle him...

maybe because it takes a lot more skill to settle him

[docicu3]

Originally Posted by v j stauffer

You're right. He sucks. Anything else?

"Post of the Year" early leader ......it's awfully easy to root for you and your guy. Great Entertainment Value on many levels........

[cmorioles]

Originally Posted by Bobby Fischer

it's been in vogue lately to let a rank horse have all the freedom in the world rather than attempt to settle him...

maybe because it takes a lot more skill to settle him

It has been in vogue because strangling a rank horse doesn't work either. It is up to the trainer to have the horse relaxed. A rider can try, but in the end, the horse is going to do what he wants. This isn't Gallop Racer.

[the_fat_man]

Originally Posted by cmorioles

It has been in vogue because strangling a rank horse doesn't work either. It is up to the trainer to have the horse relaxed. A rider can try, but in the end, the horse is going to do what he wants. This isn't Gallop Racer.

While I certainly agree that trainers really need to prepare their horses better, I think that you're locked on to a particular way of looking at things. You've accepted what you've been taught and have heard over the years.

Thus, 'the horse is going to do what he wants'. But this isn't really true as you've certainly seen countless cases where a jock has jerked a horse, significantly, to get out of trouble. How does that work when the same jock, in your opinion, can't rate a horse?

I've commented in the past on rides by Cornelio and Kent, for example, on the same horse. Kent is stronger than most and is able to rate a horse while other jocks, like Cornelio, wrestle with it. In this sense, Kent does some of the work you expect the trainer to do. As for jocks like Cornelio, check out his last two rides on Pinckney Hill and ask yourself "who's the jock and who is the horse?".

As for Fischer's comment, he actually has something. Watch how some of the better speed jocks, the Bazes, for example, rate horses: they do it by relaxing the reins. If the jock relaxes, the horse does as well. If a jock lacks the strength to properly restrain a horse, then it can never get it to relax, cause the jock can't relax.

[GBBob]

Originally Posted by the_fat_man

While I certainly agree that trainers really need to prepare their horses better, I think that you're locked on to a particular way of looking at things. You've accepted what you've been taught and have heard over the years.

Thus, 'the horse is going to do what he wants'. But this isn't really true as you've certainly seen countless cases where a jock has jerked a horse, significantly, to get out of trouble. How does that work when the same jock, in your opinion, can't rate a horse?

I've commented in the past on rides by Cornelio and Kent, for example, on the same horse. Kent is stronger than most and is able to rate a horse while other jocks, like Cornelio, wrestle with it. In this sense, Kent does some of the work you expect the trainer to do. As for jocks like Cornelio, check out his last two rides on Pinckney Hill and ask yourself "who's the jock and who is the horse?".

As for Fischer's comment, he actually has something. Watch how some of the better speed jocks, the Bazes, for example, rate horses: they do it by relaxing the reigns. If the jock relaxes, the horse does as well. If a jock lacks the strength to properly restrain a horse, then it can never get it to relax, cause the jock can't relax.

TFM..don't you think you are as well regarding the bolded above? Everything you say above is true, but only if everything you say above is true...if you know what I mean. I'm not going to touch your pace knowledge and am not ashamed to say that I take a ton away from what you post, but if all variables ( horses, trainers, jocks, tracks, etc) were equal/consistant, I think it would be easier to accept the blinkers on analysis you give.

[cmorioles]

Originally Posted by the_fat_man

While I certainly agree that trainers really need to prepare their horses better, I think that you're locked on to a particular way of looking at things. You've accepted what you've been taught and have heard over the years.

Thus, 'the horse is going to do what he wants'. But this isn't really true as you've certainly seen countless cases where a jock has jerked a horse, significantly, to get out of trouble. How does that work when the same jock, in your opinion, can't rate a horse?

I've commented in the past on rides by Cornelio and Kent, for example, on the same horse. Kent is stronger than most and is able to rate a horse while other jocks, like Cornelio, wrestle with it. In this sense, Kent does some of the work you expect the trainer to do. As for jocks like Cornelio, check out his last two rides on Pinckney Hill and ask yourself "who's the jock and who is the horse?".

As for Fischer's comment, he actually has something. Watch how some of the better speed jocks, the Bazes, for example, rate horses: they do it by relaxing the reins. If the jock relaxes, the horse does as well. If a jock lacks the strength to properly restrain a horse, then it can never get it to relax, cause the jock can't relax.

A horse that gets jerked to get out of trouble is not necessarily a rank horse.

Cornelio is horrible right now. I don't know what has happened to him, but he looks petrified out there. Of course Baze can rate horses, he is always 3 to 5 and towers over the opposition many, many times.

I understand that many horses can and will relax. I'm just saying that it isn't always the case. I've seen Kent rate horses into submission in the past too. Was it Relaxed Gesture a few years ago where he gave that comically bad ride, strangling the horse back off the lead in a race with a pedestrian pace?

I'll be the first to admit I'm not a big jockey guy. I think the get too much credit and way too much blame. As I said, my opinion is that horse was not going to run well with any ride, he was rank and didn't look particularly good to me. We'll see in a few weeks if he came back ok.

[the_fat_man]

Originally Posted by GBBob

TFM..don't you think you are as well regarding the bolded above? Everything you say above is true, but only if everything you say above is true...if you know what I mean. I'm not going to touch your pace knowledge and am not ashamed to say that I take a ton away from what you post, but if all variables ( horses, trainers, jocks, tracks, etc) were equal/consistant, I think it would be easier to accept the blinkers on analysis you give.

You don't have to buy what I'm selling. Just because I have a take on something doesn't mean I'm right. All I'm asking is that you and others don't accept what are considered to be racetrack truisms. There's a way that things are done on the track, and have been for a long period of time. Some of them are obviously correct; some are completely wrong. Just take the time to see if some of them actually pan out in races. So, when you see horses repeatedly win running on the inside, for example, you might question the truism about horses not wanting to run on the inside; or behind other horses, etc.

And so on.............

[the_fat_man]

Originally Posted by cmorioles

A horse that gets jerked to get out of trouble is not necessarily a rank horse.

No doubt. And a horse that's rank is not a horse that has bolted.