AI and The Jockey Club

Riot · #1 10-20-2009, 04:04 PM

So, went to a presentation and lunch today - sponsored by Keeneland Association - by Twink Allen of Havemeyer Foundation (equine research)entitled, "Veterinary aspects of Thoroughbred breeding: past successes and future prospects".

Basically a review of current state of the art for AI (at breeding, chilled, frozen), embryo transfer, etc. There were a bunch of the big guys there: stallion managers, Gluck Equine, UK Veterinary Bio, the big vet practices, etc.

It was a definitive and clear push, asking farm owners, vets, etc. to force discussion on the issue at the national level, with the goal of allowing AI in the TB. The general presentation was that the US is the one standing in the way (not England, Europe).

The general discussion revolved around genetic concerns (easily overcome), the way the Standardbred industry went away from Kentucky once AI was permitted. General consensus seemed to be, "old guard will never even discuss it, why bother", and "how do I profit in that new business paradigm" - as there certainly would be changes.

I just thought it interesting, that someone is willing to start anew with a public push for AI (in this economic climate) and that Keeneland sponsored it.

Cannon Shell · #2 10-20-2009, 06:47 PM

AI killed the standardbred breeding business.

Riot · #3 10-20-2009, 07:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

AI killed the standardbred breeding business.

That was brought up several times. Also, the QH sire Impressive, HYPP, and how stock has to be tested for that now.

Cannon Shell · #4 10-20-2009, 09:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Riot

That was brought up several times. Also, the QH sire Impressive, HYPP, and how stock has to be tested for that now.

I dont follow it that much anymore but I recall seeing NY Sire stakes races with 6 or 7 of the horses by the same sire.

chucklestheclown · #5 10-21-2009, 01:49 AM

If I were a mare I would prefer AI to a bunch of men trying to rape me in my stall. Where do breeding "accidents" rank in cause of death?

Cannon Shell · #6 10-21-2009, 03:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by chucklestheclown

If I were a mare I would prefer AI to a bunch of men trying to rape me in my stall. Where do breeding "accidents" rank in cause of death?

I have never heard of one

Danzig · #7 10-21-2009, 07:29 AM

i don't recall ever seeing a mare getting killed in a breeding accident, but several sires have been injured. a few years back a stallion injured his withers after falling over-he had to be euthanized.

jballscalls · #8 10-21-2009, 11:21 AM

ok, i realize this is completely juvenile of me, but is the guys real name Twink Allen? just seems an odd name

Riot · #9 10-21-2009, 08:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jballscalls

ok, i realize this is completely juvenile of me, but is the guys real name Twink Allen? just seems an odd name

He's English

I think the only chance for TB AI rests in somebody being able to show how it would be fantastically financially beneficial to the majority.

The silence is deafening ....

Merlinsky · #10 10-21-2009, 10:26 PM

Is there any thing involved in federal vs. state law when it comes to shipping frozen sperm instead of shipping mares to be bred? Would there be an effect on federal regulation I guess I'm asking, in terms of the Commerce Clause? I'm just speculating because we have things like state incentives and what not that promote one state over another that are currently able to operate.

It's entirely possible there is no difference, I was just trying to think beyond the arguments I generally hear regarding AI.

Cannon Shell · #11 10-21-2009, 10:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Merlinsky

Is there any thing involved in federal vs. state law when it comes to shipping frozen sperm instead of shipping mares to be bred? Would there be an effect on regulation I guess I'm asking, in terms of the Commerce Clause? I was just thinking that if there's a difference, is it possible that AI could mean challenging incentives to state bred incentives or increased federal regulation of the industry through that? I would think that both livestock and frozen sperm would constitute property, I just didn't know what Congress is currently able to do versus any possible changes.

The jockey club wouldnt register the foals

chucklestheclown · #12 10-22-2009, 02:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Danzig

i don't recall ever seeing a mare getting killed in a breeding accident, but several sires have been injured. a few years back a stallion injured his withers after falling over-he had to be euthanized.

I think it is much more common than once every few years.

Cannon Shell · #13 10-22-2009, 05:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by chucklestheclown

I think it is much more common than once every few years.

Give examples if it is so common.

chucklestheclown · #14 10-22-2009, 12:34 PM

Read the "Angels" thread, they're there.

Merlinsky · #15 10-22-2009, 04:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

The jockey club wouldnt register the foals

No I mean say the JC would register them. Just pretend the denial of AI is just lifted and it can happen. That tracks would let those horses run, etc. That we as a sport have given a big thumbs up. I guess I'm saying is there viable concern over Congress meddling in the breeding industry based on shipping a product (frozen sperm) across state lines or is that totally groundless? We're concerned about the establishment of federal control in other areas. Is this an opportunity to gain a toehold there?

Riot · #16 10-22-2009, 05:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Merlinsky

No I mean say the JC would register them. Just pretend the denial of AI is just lifted and it can happen. That tracks would let those horses run, etc. That we as a sport have given a big thumbs up. I guess I'm saying is there viable concern over Congress meddling in the breeding industry based on shipping a product (frozen sperm) across state lines or is that totally groundless? We're concerned about the establishment of federal control in other areas. Is this an opportunity to gain a toehold there?

I don't see why. There is already a thriving and rather old (been around for some time) chilled horse semen industry as many other equine breeds allow it except the TB. And of course there is chilled dog, cattle, sheep, etc. semen being shipped daily across both state and international borders.

There are agricultural concerns and laws for the prevention of disease spread, but those are not of great concern.

At the seminar they were talking about this: if one jurisdiction (say NY) allowed AI, or specifically shipment of chilled semen, other states could sue to be allowed same under anti-trust regulations (infringement of free trade).

Of course, that doesn't take into effect TJC registration requirements.

Frozen sperm doesn't work well with horses, so isn't and never will be a big deal. However chilled sperm does well. The most interesting aspect, to me, is that embryo transfer allows a quality mare to have more than one foal per year (two or three). That could positively impact pedigrees. Foal sexing (filtering semen to give a greater than 90% chance one could have one's choice of a colt or filly) could be of great benefit, too.

AI certainly would allow stallions not to become exhausted by breeding 3-4 times per day (and obviously stop the risk of injury to a valuable animal)

Safer for mares, the breeding shed crew, etc. too.

The downside I see - and it's a huge one IMO - is lack of true knowledge about financial impact on the industry, both in the US and worldwide. My impression is that Europe would be willing to go for it if the US would. It would certainly change the game forever. The central KY landscape wouldn't look the same, certainly. The Arabian, Quarter Horse, sport horse, and Standardbred industries have gone before us.

Cannon Shell · #17 10-22-2009, 05:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by chucklestheclown

Read the "Angels" thread, they're there.

I dont believe it.

Cannon Shell · #18 10-22-2009, 05:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Merlinsky

No I mean say the JC would register them. Just pretend the denial of AI is just lifted and it can happen. That tracks would let those horses run, etc. That we as a sport have given a big thumbs up. I guess I'm saying is there viable concern over Congress meddling in the breeding industry based on shipping a product (frozen sperm) across state lines or is that totally groundless? We're concerned about the establishment of federal control in other areas. Is this an opportunity to gain a toehold there?

I dont think that Congress or the Feds in general give a hoot if TB's are covered live or AI. There is very little chance there will be an federal control over the industry. It is simply too big of a task and there is very little to gain from the feds standpoint. The hearings were just a big show.

As for AI, I am very much against it in TB racehorses. People complain about the narrowness of the scope of the breed as it is. If AI were allowed why couldn't a popular stallion cover 500 mares a year other than cost? There have been talks about the JC limiting the size of books but it has never gained any real traction.