Howard, Paul, Other?

[King Glorious]

Here in LA, there is a lot of talk about the Lakers trying to work out a deal to bring Dwight Howard here from Orlando. Everyone seems to think that a deal that gets them Howard in exchange for Bynum and possibly Odom would be a good deal. I wouldn't do it. In fact, I wouldn't exchange Bynum for Howard straight up if I was LA. I think that Howard is better defensively but that Bynum has an edge on offense. It's not fair to compare the numbers because Bynum plays in an offense with Bryant and Gasol which means that at best, he's a third option while Howard is a focal point of Orlando's offense. I think that Bynum has a more diverse game in the post with the ability to step out a little and shoot from 10-12 feet, a very nice drop step move, and he's pretty good shooting over either shoulder. A big advantage is that you can go to him late in games and he's not the liability that Howard is. On the other end, yes, Howard has the advantage but one area he's always had a problem with is moving his feet and not reaching and if he was in LA, unless the Laker perimeter players find a way to stop their men from driving around them at will, I could see Howard getting in a lot of foul trouble trying to help out. Also, back on the other end, if Howard is there with Bryant and Gasol, his numbers will drop as he will also be a third option like Bynum is. I feel like Bryant's got two, maybe three years left. After that, is Howard the one you want to be building your team around? It didn't get them a title in Orlando.

If I was LA, I'd be much more interested in going after Chris Paul. Since they are going to be abandoning the triangle offense, they might be in need of a more traditional point guard now. Having Paul, you'd have one of the best. You could offer up Odom and Gasol to New Orleans in some kind of package. Paul helps out defensively and even though I love Odom and his ability to bring the ball upcourt, I'd rather have Paul doing that. He also relieves much of the pressure on Kobe because now Kobe doesn't have to guard the other team's best perimeter player all the time and he also can spend a lot less time initiating the offense from the top of the key, which makes him a lot easier to defend. He'd be free to play the wing more which is what he prefers anyway and it's easier for him to attack from there. By giving up both Odom and Gasol, you'd be giving away a lot of rebounds and Bynum would really have to step up in that area and they might be able to pick up someone else somehow. I think that I'd rather have a threesome of Bryant, Bynum, and Paul over one of Bryant, Howard, and Gasol. As I said, in a couple of years, Bryant is gone and I think the Bynum/Paul combo is a better one to move forward with and they'd have the age advantage also.

[dalakhani]

KG- I understand your desire to think outside of the box, but saying you wouldn't trade bynum for howard straight up would make you probably the worst GM in the NBA. Besides all of the obvious stats which we don't really need to pour through, the most important difference is that Howard stays healthy. Howard has never missed more than 4 games in his NBA career. The most Bynum has played is 65. Howard is only two years older. Howard rebounds better and he doesn't need sets run for him to be effective because he could still get his points off of the boards.

I don't underestimate Bynum. He is a talented center and certainly underrated.

I love Chris Paul but I don't see a traditional PG being able to survive with Kobe. They both need the ball.

[somerfrost]

On paper at least I'd grab a chance to add Howard to the Laker lineup, assuming you keep Gasol that's a powerful front court and with Kobe...the Lakers could use an upgrade at the point (even though I love Fisher), but getting a monster like Howard...

[King Glorious]

Bynum's health is a huge factor. A couple of the injuries were just freak things that weren't his fault but yeah, overall, it is a concern. I just think that we've seen Howard's ceiling. He's very limited offensively and if he doesn't have a band of shooters around him, he becomes pretty ineffective down there and he remains a liability in the clutch because he can't make a free throw. I just wonder how much he'd give you as a third option, a second post option? I think we'd be looking at 16-17 points and 12-13 boards a game. I feel like with Gasol gone, Bynum can get you those numbers too right now and I think he's got more potential to grow. It's all on his health though but if he stays healthy and is able to keep a rhythm going, I think his offensive advantage over Howard overcomes Howard's defensive one.

[declansharbor]

Originally Posted by King Glorious

Bynum's health is a huge factor. A couple of the injuries were just freak things that weren't his fault but yeah, overall, it is a concern. I just think that we've seen Howard's ceiling. He's very limited offensively and if he doesn't have a band of shooters around him, he becomes pretty ineffective down there and he remains a liability in the clutch because he can't make a free throw. I just wonder how much he'd give you as a third option, a second post option? I think we'd be looking at 16-17 points and 12-13 boards a game. I feel like with Gasol gone, Bynum can get you those numbers too right now and I think he's got more potential to grow. It's all on his health though but if he stays healthy and is able to keep a rhythm going, I think his offensive advantage over Howard overcomes Howard's defensive one.

mighty big IF there. IF Tyson never went to jail.....IF Shaq could shoot free throws.....IF my aunt had balls.....ah well, you get the point..

[Cannon Shell]

How are the Lakers going to be able to afford Howard or Paul under a potential hard cap without giving up 3 major salaries?

Howard was an improved offensive player this year. He is the best rebounder in the league and the best post defender and basket protector. The fact that he shoots 59% from the line is tempered by the sheer number of fouls he draws against the opposition. He is so far better than any other center/post player that it isn't even debatable.

There is no Bynum versus Howard debate. It is simply a mismatch. Lets not forget that Bynum has been in the league 5 years now (Howard has 6 years) he isn't some young guy with potential. He shot 66% from the line this year. Howard consistently shoots better from the field. The durability concerns aside Howard is a better player than Bynum and it isnt that close.

As for Chris Paul, great player but are you really going to want a physically suspect Paul, a physically suspect Bynum and an aging Kobe as the nucleus of your team going forward?

[ateamstupid]

I'm no big fan of Howard, but there's just no way you can justify calling Bynum as good as him, let alone better.

[King Glorious]

I know it's not fair to completely judge this since Bynum hasn't played yet but everything I'm seeing from Howard makes me feel I was right in what I was saying we'd see if he was in LA. He's not a dominant player. He has zero offense. Chicago single covered him with Taj Gibson at times tonight. He's a liability because of his free throws. Howard doesn't give you as much as Bynum was giving you last year.

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by King Glorious

I know it's not fair to completely judge this since Bynum hasn't played yet but everything I'm seeing from Howard makes me feel I was right in what I was saying we'd see if he was in LA. He's not a dominant player. He has zero offense. Chicago single covered him with Taj Gibson at times tonight. He's a liability because of his free throws. Howard doesn't give you as much as Bynum was giving you last year.

Really? Maybe its not really fair to judge Howard because he is coming off of back surgery and has only been back for about 90 days (he wasnt even cleared to run till the end of the preseason) or because he is playing with a torn labrum? He has no offense but somehow managed to score 19 points a game while shooting 58% from the floor for his career? His foul shooting is certainly a big issue but that isnt something new. Plus Howard is giving the Lakers ALOT more than Bynum is giving the Sixers which would be zero.

[Cannon Shell]

Not much has been said about Steve Nash who is setting all kinds of records as possibly the worst defender in the league. The Lakers bigger problem than the controversy over the offense/coach is that they are a horrible defensive team with no speed and an inability to stay healthy.

[geeker2]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

Not much has been said about Steve Nash who is setting all kinds of records as possibly the worst defender in the league. The Lakers bigger problem than the controversy over the offense/coach is that they are a horrible defensive team with no speed and an inability to stay healthy.

.....and old

Nash 38
Kobe 34
Gasol 32
MWP 33

They are painful to watch.

[King Glorious]

Obviously, if you look at it from the standpoint that Bynum isn't playing, everyone that is playing is giving you more than he is. The discussion was based on if both were playing, which would give you more. Howard is extremely limited on offense. His numbers come on a lot of lobs and putbacks. He doesn't have a go-to move that is consistent. You can't need a basket in a crucial situation and just throw it down to the big man. Very rarely is he able to create a good shot for himself and since you don't have to double him, teammates are finding fewer open lanes. Dwight was only averaging around 20 as the first option in Orlando. It was clear that he would have to give up a number of shots playing with the league's top gunner and with Gasol. I actually think his average this season is higher than I expected. When I say it's unfair because Bynum hasn't played, I mean that we haven't gotten a chance to judge him in Howard's old role, as top dog. It may be a role he can't play but I'm confident in saying that Howard can't play Bynum's role as well as Andrew did.

[King Glorious]

The Lakers went out and took a weak area and made it much worse by signing Nash. He couldn't stop me from getting around him. It's a huge problem and it was made worse by bringing in a coacb that can't spell defense. But to me, the biggest problem comes from an inability to find a way to make use of two of the best big men in the game. D'Antoni has stated that he doesn't like slow, post it up kind of team and he's never coached an elite post player. He's unable to adjust. Any system that puts Earl Clark in and takes Gasol out is wrong.

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by King Glorious

Obviously, if you look at it from the standpoint that Bynum isn't playing, everyone that is playing is giving you more than he is. The discussion was based on if both were playing, which would give you more. Howard is extremely limited on offense. His numbers come on a lot of lobs and putbacks. He doesn't have a go-to move that is consistent. You can't need a basket in a crucial situation and just throw it down to the big man. Very rarely is he able to create a good shot for himself and since you don't have to double him, teammates are finding fewer open lanes. Dwight was only averaging around 20 as the first option in Orlando. It was clear that he would have to give up a number of shots playing with the league's top gunner and with Gasol. I actually think his average this season is higher than I expected. When I say it's unfair because Bynum hasn't played, I mean that we haven't gotten a chance to judge him in Howard's old role, as top dog. It may be a role he can't play but I'm confident in saying that Howard can't play Bynum's role as well as Andrew did.

If scoring and one on one play were the only measures then you'd be correct in your hypothesis. However you also just described Wilt Chamberlain and Bill Russell neither of whom would be to be inferior to Andrew Bynum. The fact is that pre injury Howards offensive game was evolving, he had gotten a nice post up game going and had been utilizing the 12 ft bank shot pretty effectively. The problem with Howard (like Shaq and Wilt before him) has always been that down the stretch his horrid FT shooting was a big negative. The biggest strength that Howard has always had that Bynum doesnt have is elite athletisim which made him the easily the best defender of the rim in the game and also allowed him to be the leagues top rebounder as well. He obviously hasnt recaptured that athleticism yet and who knows may never get back to where he was. His all around play at Center including things that are important to post players like defense, shot blocking, and rebounding made him a superior player to Bynum who perhaps had a bit more refined offensive game. Howard has never been the smartest player on the court but Bynum was not exactly Bill Walton either.

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by King Glorious

The Lakers went out and took a weak area and made it much worse by signing Nash. He couldn't stop me from getting around him. It's a huge problem and it was made worse by bringing in a coacb that can't spell defense. But to me, the biggest problem comes from an inability to find a way to make use of two of the best big men in the game. D'Antoni has stated that he doesn't like slow, post it up kind of team and he's never coached an elite post player. He's unable to adjust. Any system that puts Earl Clark in and takes Gasol out is wrong.

The coach is not the biggest problem in LA. True his system doesn't work with the players that are on the roster but what system could work with two incompatible big men (both who have been injured), a 38 year old PG (who has been injured), a 34 year old Kobe, a slower MWP and pretty much nothing else. What system exactly would make this roster work?

Lets face facts, Nash needs to be hidden on defense AND he cant play 35 minutes a game anymore. An NBA game is 48 minutes long and the dreck that has to play 30% of the game when Nash is on the bench is putting LA at a big disadvantage. Nash is still a great shooter who is finding his legs but at this stage he is what he is. Funny thing is Kobe is in a similar spot as he is already wearing down from overuse being that LA has nobody even replacement caliber to give him a rest. His defense is where he is taking rests and with Nash on the court...well you know. Gasol is a really good low post player that would be most effective if the offense was run through him which is like the antithesis of the D'antoni system (irony is that they rarely even run that system the way it has been traditionally run because they have nobody that can shoot save Nash). Plus gasol seems like he has been ass hurt by almost being traded last year and the constant criticism from Kobe and the coach (and the front office behind the scenes). Howard SHOULD benefit from playing with Nash and playing the pick and roll game but he just doesnt look like the same guy and he wants nothing to do with the ball down the stretch because of his FT shooting.

Everyone says that they should be able to utilize the two big men to their advantage but the problem is that they are more or less incompatable on the court at the same time and even when they arent, they have completely different low post games. It is really hard to have too many variations of offensive schemes especially when the entire team hasnt been healthy and the reserves are god awful.

Of all the issues that the Lakers have the bench is the absolute worst. Remember when the Cavs added Jamison a few years ago to get them over the top? LeBron who makes everyone better couldnt help that corpse. Now a few years later he is a rotting corpse. Steve Blake got hurt which meant that they have been using Chris Duhon and Darrius Morris to run the offense when Nash isn't in the game. Duhon is in his 9th year of poor PG play and Morris who started 17 games this year has 67 assists and 42 turnovers despite not being asked to do anything but get the ball to the other guys. Earl Clark who was recently made a starter is still the same Earl Clark that couldn't get minutes for Orlando. At least he isnt ancient and can guard wings decently. Jodie Meeks only skill is shooting and he is currently shooting 38%. Devin Ebanks is shooting 32%. Jordan Hill was actually coming around but is now out for the season.

In the end there is no system that can keep guys healthy. The Lakers have no reliable perimeter shooting, nobody that can guard quick PG's or shooting guards except for Kobe who hasnt been choosing to do that much. They are slow. They dont appear to like each other very much. And everyone forgets that they got bounced out of the playoffs on their ass in Phils last year. He is not a miracle worker, he never won anything (outside of his fine work with the Albany Patroons) without having 2 of the best 3 or 4 players in the league and the current version of Kobe, Nash, Howard or Gasol arent that. Kobe wasnt good enough 2 years ago to carry a team on his back, he hasnt gotten better and this season has a long way to go.

[Antitrust32]

I think the winner in the trade was Orlando. How Doug Collins didnt see what he had in Nic Vucevic is beyond me. Unless Bynum somehow grows new knees, this trade is going to set back the 76ers for a long time.

[golfer]

Originally Posted by Antitrust32

I think the winner in the trade was Orlando. How Doug Collins didnt see what he had in Nic Vucevic is beyond me. Unless Bynum somehow grows new knees, this trade is going to set back the 76ers for a long time.

The biggest winner was Brooklyn!

[Indian Charlie]

Hopefully, and ultimately, the biggest winners will be those who realize Jim Buss is as bad at running a basketball team as he was at training horses.

The sooner Jim Buss is gone, the better.

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by Antitrust32

I think the winner in the trade was Orlando. How Doug Collins didnt see what he had in Nic Vucevic is beyond me. Unless Bynum somehow grows new knees, this trade is going to set back the 76ers for a long time.

They werent going to resign Iguodala for what he wants and the other guys they traded arent difference makers. The best thing at this point is Bynum doesn't play so they dont feel obligated to sign him to a big, long term killer of a contract after the season. I wouldnt be shocked if they move Richardson at the deadline if they can. What they are going to have is a lot of cap space and potentially a top 10 pick after this season which isnt a bad thing.

[geeker2]

They're back baby !

http://www.latimes.com/sports/lakers...,1755602.story