Spanish Chestnut....

IrishofNDMan · #1 09-17-2006, 10:22 AM

anyone think he can get it done today?

SniperSB23 · #2 09-17-2006, 10:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by IrishofNDMan

anyone think he can get it done today?

Haven't capped it. Is there other early speed? He is certainly a threat if he gets loose on the lead but will wind up toast like usual if he is forced into ridiculous fractions. I'd love to see him win though.

DiscreetCat=Monster · #3 09-17-2006, 08:13 PM

He looked super for the 1st 4 furlongs, but they still put up a solid time I believe its 1:08.3 so he can still get it done just needs a little drop in class

SniperSB23 · #4 09-17-2006, 09:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LOSE=GLUE

He looked super for the 1st 4 furlongs, but they still put up a solid time I believe its 1:08.3 so he can still get it done just needs a little drop in class

He certainly showed a lot more heart coming down the stretch which is encouraging at least. Thought he was going to fight back and win for a minute there.

blackthroatedwind · #5 09-17-2006, 09:57 PM

He's just not that good. No disrespect to Spooky Mulder, who's about as game and solid as they come, but Spanish Chesnut was supposed to win today's race.

repent · #6 09-18-2006, 12:43 AM

man,
this is one of the most overrated(and overbet) horses I have ever seen.

he wins one 8f santa anita grade 2 race in the spring of his 3YO year(there are like a million of those every spring at santa anita) and everyone thinks he is a top class sprinter.
he is not.
he sucks.
in fact, just about everything i am seeing from Horse Chestnut sucks on both turf and dirt.
its a shame b/c he was such a nice racehorse.

pmayjr · #7 09-18-2006, 04:13 AM

Has Spanish been tried on the Turf? I think he could be a decent Turf Miler if given a shot...

slotdirt · #8 09-18-2006, 05:23 AM

Nobody ever thought Spanish Chestnut was a world beater. Still, he's a useful horse who has looked good in spots here and there.

The Bid · #9 09-18-2006, 08:33 AM

PMA I couldnt agree more. Its ashame hes never been put in the right place, you would think Tagg and Funny Cide's crew were picking his spots. Try him on the grass for christ sakes

Seattleallstar · #10 09-18-2006, 10:44 AM

a horse they messed up so bad its really a damn shame, could of been a useful sprinter/miler.

King Glorious · #11 09-19-2006, 06:30 AM

This horse has never possessed the speed to be a top level sprinter and can't run well past a mile. He might have been able to be a decent miler but in this country, there aren't many races for those types and he wasn't going to beat the better ones anyway. Extremely overrated horse in my opinion.

Hwjb · #12 09-19-2006, 08:46 AM

Tabor should take some advice from his good friend JP McManus, send Spanish Chestnut to Jonjo O'Neill's and mop up all the fancy prices for the Supreme Novices' Hurdle on Day 1 of the Cheltenham Festival!

slotdirt · #13 09-19-2006, 09:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by King Glorious

This horse has never possessed the speed to be a top level sprinter and can't run well past a mile. He might have been able to be a decent miler but in this country, there aren't many races for those types and he wasn't going to beat the better ones anyway. Extremely overrated horse in my opinion.

How can you say he was overrated? Nobody ever thought he was anything more than a lower level, GIII type horse. Is that overrated? I don't think so; he's shown he can compete on that level.

A horse that was used as a f-ing rabbit in the biggest race on the planet just can't, by nature, be overrated.

King Glorious · #14 09-19-2006, 12:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by slotdirt

How can you say he was overrated? Nobody ever thought he was anything more than a lower level, GIII type horse. Is that overrated? I don't think so; he's shown he can compete on that level.

A horse that was used as a f-ing rabbit in the biggest race on the planet just can't, by nature, be overrated.

I knew of people that were saying he was a legit Derby contender after he won that race at Santa Anita. I knew of many people that thought after the Derby that if he were dropped back down to sprints or miles, that he would be a grade one type. For those people, I say he was overrated. For those of us that thought he wouldn't amount to much more than a competitive (but non-winning) grade three type, I guess u could say we didn't overrate him.

Just because he ran in the Derby doesn't mean that he can't be called overrated. Many times u see trainers enter horses that have no shot in a race to be a rabbit for their main horse. Does that make all of those rabbits legit horses? No. So just because Spanish Chestnut was used as a rabbit in the Derby doesn't make him exempt from being able to be put in the overrated category for those that thought he'd be much.

slotdirt · #15 09-19-2006, 01:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by King Glorious

I knew of people that were saying he was a legit Derby contender after he won that race at Santa Anita. I knew of many people that thought after the Derby that if he were dropped back down to sprints or miles, that he would be a grade one type. For those people, I say he was overrated. For those of us that thought he wouldn't amount to much more than a competitive (but non-winning) grade three type, I guess u could say we didn't overrate him.

Just because he ran in the Derby doesn't mean that he can't be called overrated. Many times u see trainers enter horses that have no shot in a race to be a rabbit for their main horse. Does that make all of those rabbits legit horses? No. So just because Spanish Chestnut was used as a rabbit in the Derby doesn't make him exempt from being able to be put in the overrated category for those that thought he'd be much.

My point in saying he was a rabbit is that obviously nobody at that time thought he was a competitive horse at that level. I never thought he was more than what he is now, and thought it was sad that they'd put him through the Derby given his chances.

JJP · #16 09-19-2006, 01:09 PM

Whether or not Spanish Chestnut is/was overrated isn't relevant. Not when you see the claim that King Glorious was the best horse in the past 20 years. And Java Gold second. Did King Glorious ever win past a mile and a sixteenth? Did he even win going THAT far? He never beat high quality horses. Yeah Java Gold beat a good field in the 87 Travers but that was in the slop. What was his biggest win on a dry track? Go For Wand was never as good as Personal Ensign, Bayakoa or the other great mares in the late 80s/early 90s. I guess since she died on the track we have to elevate our opinion of her?

King Glorious · #17 09-19-2006, 01:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JJP

Whether or not Spanish Chestnut is/was overrated isn't relevant. Not when you see the claim that King Glorious was the best horse in the past 20 years. And Java Gold second. Did King Glorious ever win past a mile and a sixteenth? Did he even win going THAT far? He never beat high quality horses. Yeah Java Gold beat a good field in the 87 Travers but that was in the slop. What was his biggest win on a dry track? Go For Wand was never as good as Personal Ensign, Bayakoa or the other great mares in the late 80s/early 90s. I guess since she died on the track we have to elevate our opinion of her?

Let's answer a couple of your questions.

YES, King Glorious DID win going beyond a 8.5f. Couple of little races called the Ohio Derby and the HASKELL. Perhaps u've never heard of the Haskell so I'll forgive u here. Both of those races were at 9f. I once asked Chris McCarron what he thought of KG's chances against the likes of Easy Goer and Sunday Silence since they were all in the same year. He said that up to a mile, those others would have no shot to catch KG but that he thought they would beat him if it was 9-10f. No disgrace there. Who says that a horse HAS to race at 9-10 to be considered a top horse?

Yes, Java Gold's win in the Travers was in the slop. But when he beat 4yo Broad Brush and Gulch in the Whitney, and when he beat Polish Navy and 4yo Nostalgia's Star in the Marlboro Cup, the track was dry. I'm sure that u remember that the Whitney was (still is) one of the top races of the year for older horses as was the Marlboro Cup. If u remember the situation that year, Java Gold was probably the 1-9 favorite to be named HOY that year. That was his price in the JCGC, where a win would have virtually clinched the title. Unfortunately, he suffered a bruised foot during the running of the race and finished second to Creme Fraiche, a course and distance specialist (Belmont Stakes, back to back JCGC wins all at 12f).

Was Go for Wand as good as Personal Ensign or Bayakoa? Who's to say. Could any of those horses u think were better have done what Go for Wand did in the summer of her 3yo season? GfW won the 7f Test in 1:21 flat then came back NINE DAYS LATER and won the 10f Alabama in 2:00 4/5 under a hand ride. I don't care what track, what the conditions......u don't find 3yo fillies running 2:00 4/5 and especially ones that are that versatile to have run 1:21 flat barely a week earlier. Then to top it off, she comes back a couple of months later and runs 9f in 1:45 4/5, just missing Secretariat's track record at Belmont. Those three things are extraordinary feats for any horse, even moreso when it's a 3yo filly. U are comparing the 3yo GfW with the 4yo Personal Ensign and the even more mature Bayakoa. And before GfW broke down, she was running step for step with Bayakoa. U don't have to agree that she's better. But she's definitely right there in the conversation. Her death has no bearing on what she did on the track.

In any case, this was NOT a claim that these ARE the best horses of the past 20 years. Just the best ones in MY opinion. U are more than welcome to have a contrary opinion.

JJP · #18 09-19-2006, 02:03 PM

Its not that they weren't good. Its just when you claim those were three of the top 5 in the past 20 years, you're gonna hear about it. Of those three, I'd say Java Gold was the most deserving. Beating Broad Brush and Gulch was solid in the Whitney although IMO Nostalgia's Star and Polish Navy were no world beaters by any stretch for the JCGC. The Travers was a strong field too. Brilliant but brief career.

As for KG, I'd take what any jockey says with a grain of salt. And after Sunday Silence and Easy Goer, there wasn't much to beat in the Haskell (or Ohio Derby for that matter). Sunday Silence had a pretty good turn of foot; I really doubt KG would've beaten Sunday Silence at a mile.

Go for Wand was very solid too although I'm not big on throwing around unadjusted times. Just IMO, she didn't distinguish herself as being better than the true superstar mares. Maybe as good, or close to, but not better.

Cajungator26 · #19 09-19-2006, 02:05 PM

Opinions are like a ssholes... everyone has got one.

IMO, the best horse of the last 20 years was Easy Goer. God, I loved that horse.

blackthroatedwind · #20 09-19-2006, 02:12 PM

Java Gold ( who I believe was 3-10 that day ) lost the JCGC due to Pat Day's incompetence not an injury. In fact, Mack Miller was actually considering running him in the BC, which he was against, to try and recoup HOY but he then discovered an injury. But, the injury did not cost him the Jockey Club, Day's horrendous and inexcusable ride did.

Go for Wand was a VERY good horse. Please...I don't know how anyone could suggest otherwise. Compared to the random horses people call great these days she was the greatest horse of all time.

As for King Glorious...I was at that Haskell and remembering him beating a very bad field. I can't believe anybody would base an opinion of a horse on what a jockey says. Gary Stevens, for instance, has ridden 896 horses that are the best he has ever ridden.