All conventional wisdom may be lost...

kentuckyrosesinmay · #1 09-19-2006, 01:24 PM

http://www.bloodhorse.com/articleind...e.asp?id=35360

3-Year-old Eclipse: Bernardini or Barbaro?

"Let's look into the future. Bernardini has won the Breeders' Cup Classic and it's time to vote for the Eclipse Awards. In a move that seemingly makes no logical sense, yet one that actually makes very good sense, albeit in a convoluted way, the vote may very well go like this: Bernardini for Horse of the Year; Barbaro for champion 3-year-old. These are two horses that both deserve an Eclipse Award, and there is no other way to achieve that.

Look at the 3-year-old division this way: Bernardini has won the grade I Preakness and Travers, and grade II Jim Dandy and Withers. Barbaro won the grade I Kentucky Derby and Florida Derby and grade III Holy Bull and Tropical Park Derby. But Barbaro won on the grass and in the slop, and most important, he won the Kentucky Derby -- by 6 1/2 lengths against one of the strongest and deepest fields assembled in years. Forget his miraculous recovery and the unprecedented publicity he generated for the sport. In the 3-year-old division, he will have achieved basically just as much as Bernardini, who with a victory in the Classic would make him as worthy a Horse of the Year as we've had in years.

So, if Bernardini does win the Classic, it may be time to throw away conventional wisdom and reward two horses who both deserve championship honors."

I don't know if I agree with this. It defies all logic. I can't believe that some are actually considering this. However, Bernardini hasn't won the Classic yet so we will see.

Cajungator26 · #2 09-19-2006, 01:26 PM

I figured they may do that IF Bernardini wins the classic (which I don't think will happen.) I don't agree with it personally. If Bernardini wins the BC Classic, then he deserves both honors.

#3 09-19-2006, 01:29 PM

BERNARDINI, off of 6 lifetime starts, will not win the classic, he just won't. and further,lets let him hit the wire before at least 1 older horse before we call him anything close to a champion, he still has yet to do that.

we all saw what SHOWING UP did when he faced the real horses,not the colts, CACIQUE made him look his age.

kentuckyrosesinmay · #4 09-19-2006, 01:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cajungator26

I figured they may do that IF Bernardini wins the classic. I don't agree with it personally. If Bernardini wins the BC Classic, then he deserves both honors.

Yeah, I agree with you. I think that if Bernardini wins the Classic, he deserves both. However, if he doesn't win or finish well in the Classic, 3 yr old honors will most likely be very close. I don't know though. A win in the JCGC may put Bernardini past Barbaro in the polls, but it wouldn't be much of a difference. Barbaro is only slightly ahead of Bernardini in the polls right now. Usually we have a pretty good idea who has got what by this time of the year as far as championship honors go, but this year, it is up in the air.

blackthroatedwind · #5 09-19-2006, 01:32 PM

If Bernardini wins the JCGC then there is absolutely no possible logical defense of " Barbaro for 3YO champ ".

Maybe there should be a double winner in every group...winner based on merit and top horse in each group that got injured. The Eclipse Awards have been ridiculous for a while and they just keep getting worse.

#6 09-19-2006, 01:39 PM

It is all speculation right now but that will end when Bernardini wins his next two starts.....

kentuckyrosesinmay · #7 09-19-2006, 01:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by blackthroatedwind

If Bernardini wins the JCGC then there is absolutely no possible logical defense of " Barbaro for 3YO champ ".

Maybe there should be a double winner in every group...winner based on merit and top horse in each group that got injured. The Eclipse Awards have been ridiculous for a while and they just keep getting worse.

Aren't selected members of the media the ones who cast votes? I have heard that a lot of these who have voting rights do not have the credibility or ability to make sound judgements regarding these matters. They ought to let us vote here on derbytrail.com! Wouldn't that be fun (wishful thinking)! If that is the case, I think most of us probably know a lot more about what is going on than some of those that do have the voting rights.

Cajungator26 · #8 09-19-2006, 01:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cunningham Racing

It is all speculation right now but that will end when Bernardini wins his next two starts.....

LOL Joel. He'll win his next start, but he won't win the Classic.

ateamstupid · #9 09-19-2006, 01:53 PM

This is nonsense. Champion 3-year-old should go to THE BEST 3-YEAR-OLD, not the horse who performed best in restricted 3-year-old races.

Can everyone please stop having a heart attack about Bernardini being better than their hero Barbaro? That doesn't make Barbaro a nag or a rat.. He was a very nice 3-year-old.. But Bernardini is a monster. There's a difference.

King Glorious · #10 09-19-2006, 01:53 PM

It would be one of the stupidest things in the history of sports to say that the horse that could be named as the best one in the country is not even deserving to be named as the best one in his own division.

Rupert Pupkin · #11 09-19-2006, 01:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Secretariat

BERNARDINI, off of 6 lifetime starts, will not win the classic, he just won't. and further,lets let him hit the wire before at least 1 older horse before we call him anything close to a champion, he still has yet to do that.

we all saw what SHOWING UP did when he faced the real horses,not the colts, CACIQUE made him look his age.

I think Bernardini will win the Classic. I think he is head and shoulders of above anyone out there with the possible exception of Lava Man. But with Lava Man, we don't know that he can necessarily run as well on the road and his last two races were not quite as good as some of his past races. I make Bernardini a pretty heavy favorite to win the Classic.

Showing Up is a different story. Even after he won the Arlington race in a faster time than The Tin Man ran on the same day at the same track, everyone on this board including myself agreed that Showing Up would have no chance agaisnt The Tin Man. Showing up had been very impressive but he still didn't look quite as good as the top older turf horses.

Cajungator26 · #12 09-19-2006, 01:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rupert Pupkin

I think Bernardini will win the Classic. I think he is head and shoulders of above anyone out there with the possible exception of Lava Man. But with Lava Man, we don't know that he can necessarily run as well on the road and his last two races were not quite as good as some of his past races. I make Bernardini a pretty heavy favorite to win the Classic.

Showing Up is a different story. Even after he won the Arlington race in a faster time than The Tin Man ran on the same day at the same track, everyone on this board including myself agreed that Showing Up would have no chance agaisnt The Tin Man. Showing up had been very impressive but he still didn't look quite as good as the top older turf horses.

Not many would have had much of a chance against The Tin Man on that day. The fractions were ridiculous.

#13 09-19-2006, 02:11 PM

KYrosesinMay
if you remeber our discussion on this matter
I suggested the same thing as this proposal
and you and the rest jumped down my throat
now a "published writer" says the same thing
and everybody buys into it? stealing my thunder
possibly from reading this very board
bunch of robots! programmed by the media

kentuckyrosesinmay · #14 09-19-2006, 02:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rupert Pupkin

I think Bernardini will win the Classic. I think he is head and shoulders of above anyone out there with the possible exception of Lava Man. But with Lava Man, we don't know that he can necessarily run as well on the road and his last two races were not quite as good as some of his past races. I make Bernardini a pretty heavy favorite to win the Classic.

I really believe that the high weights in the Hollywood Gold Cup and his tough campaign are responsible for his last two races not being quite as good. That HGC race was so hard on that horse. It is just amazing that he managed to win with all of the weight that he was giving to the other horses in addition to the facts that he stumbled out of the gate and had horses attacking him from every side throughout the entire race. I think that if he gets some well needed rest that he will be good as new! He ran some nice races earlier in the year, although I don't know if they were as impressive as those three last year. He certainly has been more consistent this year though.

Like you though, I don't know how he ships, and even if everything goes perfect for Lava Man, his best may still not be good enough to beat Bernardini.

kentuckyrosesinmay · #15 09-19-2006, 02:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BellamyRd.

KYrosesinMay
if you remeber our discussion on this matter
I suggested the same thing as this proposal
and you and the rest jumped down my throat
now a "published writer" says the same thing
and everybody buys into it? stealing my thunder
possibly from reading this very board
bunch of robots! programmed by the media

Actually BR, everyone on this board is basically saying that if Bernardini wins HOY, then it will be ridiculous if Barbaro wins the 3 yo title because Bernardini will be deserving of both titles if he wins the BCC. In fact, I believe everyone has said that what the author of the article has proposed is completely ridiculous.

Cajungator26 · #16 09-19-2006, 02:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kentuckyrosesinmay

Actually BR, everyone on this board is basically saying that if Bernardini wins HOY, then it will be ridiculous if Barbaro wins the 3 yo title because Bernardini will be deserving of both titles if he wins the BCC. In fact, I believe everyone has said that what the author of the article has proposed is completely ridiculous.

Yes, but what he was saying was that he proposed the idea first that it MAY happen.

#17 09-19-2006, 02:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kentuckyrosesinmay

Actually BR, everyone on this board is basically saying that if Bernardini wins HOY, then it will be ridiculous if Barbaro wins the 3 yo title because Bernardini will be deserving of both titles if he wins the BCC. In fact, I believe everyone has said that what the author of the article has proposed is completely ridiculous.

fact it you posted the article
another fact is I stated it originally
what anyone else thinks is moot!

kentuckyrosesinmay · #18 09-19-2006, 02:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BellamyRd.

fact it you posted the article
another fact is I stated it originally
what anyone else thinks is moot!

The reason I posted the article is because I thought that having Barbaro as 3 yo champ and Bernardini as HOY was completely ridiculous. I can't believe that anyone in the industry could actually give Barbaro 3 yo honors if Bernardini wins the BCC and is HOY. It makes no sense. There do need to be some changes made in the game, but this is not one of them.

Linny · #19 09-19-2006, 02:31 PM

Obviously the whole idea is based upon a "what if..." If you don't buy the premise, then you have no comment.

If Bernardini does win the BCC, then he should get 3yo and HOY honors. If he's not entitled to be called the "best 3yo male" then how can he be HOY. Voting in a HOY who didn't even win his division makes the Awards a joke.

#20 09-19-2006, 02:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kentuckyrosesinmay

The reason I posted the article is because I thought that having Barbaro as 3 yo champ and Bernardini as HOY was completely ridiculous. I can't believe that anyone in the industry could actually give Barbaro 3 yo honors if Bernardini wins the BCC and is HOY. It makes no sense. There do need to be some changes made in the game, but this is not one of them.

yeah, but you also have to consider
that you are as dumb as a box of rocks...