The Dodgers/Red Sox Trade

[dalakhani]

Nothing is done yet but it looks like Gonzalez, Crawford, beckett, punto for a bag of beans and some low ceiling prospects.

if it goes down, think about what a huge move this is for both sides. Boston gets rid of some serious salary for a non contending team while LA gets a real first basemen they can stick in the middle of the order. It also probably gives Beckett a ltitle bit of a reprieve.

That is a lot of salary to be taking on for essentially one guy. Not to say that Crawford can't contribute down the road and that beckett might not help in the pennant race but really this move is all about gonzalez...if it goes down.

[Alabama Stakes]

getting rid of the cancer always helps. now if we can dump Lester and his buddy Pedroia, we can get back to winning.

[slotdirt]

I get Beckett and Crawford, but Gonzalez? By all accounts, he's been a consummate pro, not to mention actually worth his contract.

How all of these guys made it through waivers to be claimed by the Dodgers, a team with serious ownership issues until the last few months, is beyond me.

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by slotdirt

I get Beckett and Crawford, but Gonzalez? By all accounts, he's been a consummate pro, not to mention actually worth his contract.

How all of these guys made it through waivers to be claimed by the Dodgers, a team with serious ownership issues until the last few months, is beyond me.

Who else would claim Beckett? He has been awful this year and has 2 more years at 16 million per. I dont know if Crawford had to go through waivers because he is on DL but you'd have to have hot your head to claim him especially considering he just had TJ surgery and will be out for probably 1/2 the season next year and is owed over $100 million. Crawford is a legs guy and those guys dont age well. Gonzalez has not exactly been lighting it up in Boston though to be fair they were playing him in RF alot earlier in the season. While his numbers are good they arent $21 million a year good($120 million left) and being that the Dodgers were willing to take on those other two pretty toxic contracts this was probably an easy call for Boston.

The implication that this is a bad deal for Boston is crazy. This is an unbelievably good deal for them. Cant believe that LA had to give up 2 good prospects for them. Webster is a really good prospect. Dont know where anyone got the idea that he isnt. De la Rosa is coming off of TJ surgery but he is a still a 3 star guy. The others are potentially marginal ML guys. Boston isnt going anywhere this year and this trade frees up an enormous financial obligation that they surely will be investing somewhere else. I get that LA needed a 1b because Loney pretty much sucks and maybe they can squeeze something out of Beckett (Dodgers stad is a pitchers park) but cant believe they took Crawford. But they are seemingly all in this year which i suppose is what fans want.

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by Alabama Stakes

now if we can dump Lester and his buddy Pedroia

that isnt gonna happen

[dalakhani]

When I said "low ceiling prospects" the players hadnt been named yet and the word was at the time that they weren't giving up any top prospects. That being said, I don't know anything about the prospects they gave up.

I agree with you on this being a no brainer for the red sox. To me, getting a good prospect out of the deal is gravy. Finding a team that would take that Crawford contract as well as the Beckett contract is ridiculously good fortune for a team that is going young.

good for LA for seizing the moment and going for it now. Gutsy move.

[Alabama Stakes]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

that isnt gonna happen

it's a nice thought though....Lester is a miserable one way hump, Pedroia hits the ball pretty well for a bald man, but would be a great villain to hate, the little puke that he is. he'd look good in pinstripes

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by Alabama Stakes

it's a nice thought though....Lester is a miserable one way hump, Pedroia hits the ball pretty well for a bald man, but would be a great villain to hate, the little puke that he is. he'd look good in pinstripes

Lester is a very good young left handed pitcher having a rare off year. He is also signed to a favorable contract. If they wanted to trade him every team in the league would be interested.

Pedroia went to a miserable university but other than that is one of the 2 or 3 best 2nd basemen in baseball and is signed to a very favorable contract. If they wanted to trade him almost every team in baseball would be interested.

And easy on the bald guys...

[dalakhani]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

Lester is a very good young left handed pitcher having a rare off year. He is also signed to a favorable contract. If they wanted to trade him every team in the league would be interested.

Pedroia went to a miserable university but other than that is one of the 2 or 3 best 2nd basemen in baseball and is signed to a very favorable contract. If they wanted to trade him almost every team in baseball would be interested.

And easy on the bald guys...

Lester is a solid number 2 or 3 pitcher and yes he could pitch on any rotation in the league. The thing is, they made plans for him as a number 1 guy and he simply hasnt been to this point.

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by dalakhani

Lester is a solid number 2 or 3 pitcher and yes he could pitch on any rotation in the league. The thing is, they made plans for him as a number 1 guy and he simply hasnt been to this point.

Really? 2008-2011 he was one of the best 15 starters in baseball (probably top 10). Being that there are 30 teams that would make him not only a number 1 starter but one of the top number 1 starters. Compare his numbers to Cole Hamels who just got $165 million dollar contract. Lester is having a BAD year, no doubt. His he is allowing way more hits, HR's and BB's than he ever has and is striking out fewer which is a disturbing trend. However a young pitcher with an established track record that suddenly has a bad year is almost always a physical issue that they may or may not reveal.

Your statement is absolutely not correct. He was unquestionably a number 1 starter from the time he became a rotation regular in 2008 and this year he is unquestionably barely a number 5 starter based on his production or lack of it.

[Alabama Stakes]

Cole Hamels....isn't he the guy who beat the **** out of his wife in the middle of faneuil hall ? Lester was the ring leader of the beer and chicken crowd during the game and wouldn't spit on you if you were on fire. pitching in fenway helps him too.

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by Alabama Stakes

Cole Hamels....isn't he the guy who beat the **** out of his wife in the middle of faneuil hall ? Lester was the ring leader of the beer and chicken crowd during the game and wouldn't spit on you if you were on fire. pitching in fenway helps him too.

Uh no that would be Brett Myers.

If Lester would pitch like he did in prior years I would suggest beer and chicken should be back on the menu. A left hander pitching in Fenway helps? Fenway Park helps pitchers? The Fenway Park in Boston?

[dalakhani]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

Really? 2008-2011 he was one of the best 15 starters in baseball (probably top 10). Being that there are 30 teams that would make him not only a number 1 starter but one of the top number 1 starters. Compare his numbers to Cole Hamels who just got $165 million dollar contract. Lester is having a BAD year, no doubt. His he is allowing way more hits, HR's and BB's than he ever has and is striking out fewer which is a disturbing trend. However a young pitcher with an established track record that suddenly has a bad year is almost always a physical issue that they may or may not reveal.

Your statement is absolutely not correct. He was unquestionably a number 1 starter from the time he became a rotation regular in 2008 and this year he is unquestionably barely a number 5 starter based on his production or lack of it.

A lot of teams don't have a number one starter and a couple of teams have more than one guy who could qualify. When you play for a perennial playoff team like the red sox, what would qualify as a number one guy is different than what would qualify in kc. Is that fair to say?

Either way, here are a few guys that I think have been better over the last few years:

Sabathia
King Felix
Verlander
Lincecum
Cliff lee
Kershaw
Weaver
Halliday
Matt Cain
Chris carpenter
David price
Wainwright

And there a few more where a serious debate can be made.

I think Lester is a talented pitcher but do you really want that guy out there game 7? Being that there are only 8 playoff teams (10 now) Boston was hoping for him to be with the group above. In my opinion, he hasn't been as good. He gets the stats and he's won games but he hasn't delivered the way they needed him and that is a big reason they have disappointed so much over the last few years.

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by dalakhani

A lot of teams don't have a number one starter and a couple of teams have more than one guy who could qualify. When you play for a perennial playoff team like the red sox, what would qualify as a number one guy is different than what would qualify in kc. Is that fair to say?

Either way, here are a few guys that I think have been better over the last few years:

Sabathia
King Felix
Verlander
Lincecum
Cliff lee
Kershaw
Weaver
Halliday
Matt Cain
Chris carpenter
David price
Wainwright

And there a few more where a serious debate can be made.

I think Lester is a talented pitcher but do you really want that guy out there game 7? Being that there are only 8 playoff teams (10 now) Boston was hoping for him to be with the group above. In my opinion, he hasn't been as good. He gets the stats and he's won games but he hasn't delivered the way they needed him and that is a big reason they have disappointed so much over the last few years.

Your last paragraph is so talk radioish. Do I want that guy out there in game 7? Well I would want him out there over 90% of starters in baseball so does that count? I dont know what you base your opinion on but saying a guy "gets the stats" in baseball is, uh, unusual? He hasnt delivered? Based on what? He has delivered 4 seasons of very good pitching in a hitters park with so-so defenses behind him for several of those seasons.

John Lester 2008-2011
65-32
3.33
135 ERA+
20.8 WAR

Lester 2008-2012
73-42
3.58
125 ERA+
20.6 WAR

David Price 2009-2012
57-31
3.21
121 ERA+
12.4 WAR

Cain 2008-2012
60-49
3.11
126 ERA+
13.2 WAR

Lincecum 2008-2011
62-36
2.88
143 ERA+
21.6 WAR

Wainwright 2008-2012
63-32
2.88
138 ERA+
15.7 WAR

Carpenter 2009-2011* (Injured in 2008 and 2012)
44-22
3.02
128 ERA+
12.5 WAR

Weaver 2008-2012
74-41
3.23
126 ERA+
20 WAR

Sabathia 2008-2012
89-36
3.11
140 ERA+
26.1 WAR

Halladay 2008-2012
85-44
2.74
151 ERA+
30.9 WAR

Lee 2008-2012
68-40
2.96
139 ERA+
27.4 WAR

Hernandez 2008-2012
68-47
2.81
142 ERA+
24.7 WAR

Verlander
84-47
3.33
129 ERA+
24.9 WAR

Kershaw
59-35
2.87
135 ERA+
21.6 WAR

I didnt use Lester or Lincecums 2012 season because they are so out of character. Lincecum is having a far worse season this year than Lester.

It is really hard to say that Lester doesnt fit right in the middle of this group. Of course the NL guys have an advantage numbers wise because they dont have to face the DH and several guys here like Hernandez, Kershaw, Cain, Lincecum all play in decidely pitchers parks. Lester isnt the best pitcher in the group by any measure but he is absolutely one of the best starting pitchers in the game and is unquestionably a solid number 1 starter.

[Alabama Stakes]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

Uh no that would be Brett Myers.

If Lester would pitch like he did in prior years I would suggest beer and chicken should be back on the menu. A left hander pitching in Fenway helps? Fenway Park helps pitchers? The Fenway Park in Boston?

apologies to Cole Hamels..
Fenway is a left handed hitters park. Lester is a lefty, do the math. Green Monster turns Right handed hitters homers into singles.

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by Alabama Stakes

apologies to Cole Hamels..
Fenway is a left handed hitters park. Lester is a lefty, do the math. Green Monster turns Right handed hitters homers into singles.

Hold on now. You are a Red Sox fan who thinks that Fenway park FAVORS left handed pitchers? Oh boy

Jon Lester in 2012
Home record (you know in Fenway)
3-8 with 6.60 era

Away record (you know everywhere other than Fenway)
5-2 with 2.99 era

Best left handed starting pitchers for the Boston Red Sox in the Fenway Park era
1. Lefty Grove
2. Bill Lee
3. Mel Parnell
4. Jon Lester
5. Bruce Hurst

Thats a 100 years and Bruce Hurst makes your list?
yeah Fenway is a haven for lefties...


And since you seemingly dont seem to understand how the park plays...pop flys at Fenway often turn into doubles which is far worse for pitchers than your theory (wrong by the way) that the Monster takes away HR and makes them singles.

[dalakhani]

There are a zillion other stats and you use number of earned runs as the metric?

You are right- Lester is as good or even close to as good as king Felix or Kershaw and its only the ballparks that are keeping him from being as dominant. What was I thinking?

The red sox, meanwhile, haven't been to the playoffs since 2009. He has lost his last 3 playoff starts. Meanwhile, from 2009-2011 he was 8-0 against Baltimore and 9-2 against Toronto while he was 6-6 against Tampa. Prior to his last start against the Yankees, he had a 6 plus era and a whip of 1.75 over his last seven starts vs. the yanks.

One more thing: from 2009 -2011 Lester had a better era at home than on the road. Look it up.

Yes, you are right again. Lester is right up there with Halliday.

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by dalakhani

There are a zillion other stats and you use number of earned runs as the metric?

You are right- Lester is as good or even close to as good as king Felix or Kershaw and its only the ballparks that are keeping him from being as dominant. What was I thinking?

The red sox, meanwhile, haven't been to the playoffs since 2009. He has lost his last 3 playoff starts. Meanwhile, from 2009-2011 he was 8-0 against Baltimore and 9-2 against Toronto while he was 6-6 against Tampa. Prior to his last start against the Yankees, he had a 6 plus era and a whip of 1.75 over his last seven starts vs. the yanks.

One more thing: from 2009 -2011 Lester had a better era at home than on the road. Look it up.

Yes, you are right again. Lester is right up there with Halliday.

What are you smoking? You are complaining about earned run average and adjusted era, ignoring the WAR metric and using wins and losses?


Yeah the criteria for being a number 1 starter is being "as good" as Roy Halladay, Felix Hernandez and Clayton Kershaw? Right ballpark factors are complete bullshit and shouldnt be taken into consideration? Your inference that because the Red Sox have not made the playoffs since 2009 somehow Lester is to blame is ridiclous. The idea that he has not been a good playoff pitcher is of course not supported by the numbers. He started 6 playoff games and in 5 of the 6 pitched well. Yeah he lost his last 3 playoff starts but you fail to note that the Red Sox scored a grand total of 2 runs in those 3 games, 1 in two of them and got shutout in the other. I'm sure that Lester had something to do with that? You forgot to add that in 3 of his 6 playoff starts he allowed zero earned runs.

You ignore 4 years worth of top 5% production to bring up the last 7 games against the Yankees? Are all closers **** because they arent as good as Mariano Rivera?

By virtually every statistical measure that there is Lester is a extremely good starting pitcher. He has not been nearly as good this year but that doesnt mean that the previous years dont count.

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by dalakhani

There are a zillion other stats and you use number of earned runs as the metric?

And when you get right down to it, run prevention is the basis by which pitchers are measured. Their chief role is to prevent the other team from scoring runs. So yeah ERA+ especially is a great measure to compare a pitcher other pitchers in the league.

[dalakhani]

When did I say he was a bad pitcher?