Ron Ellis claims East Coast Bias

[Calzone Lord]

This wouldn't be as noteworthy if he wasn't also a TVG analyst.

This is what Ellis said about Include Me Out...

“To tell you the truth, I’ve been a little insulted by the lack of respect my filly has gotten,” Ellis said during a national teleconference on Tuesday. “She’s proven she’s the best filly on the West Coast but I understand the East Coast bias and the press building up those other fillies. But my filly loves that track and she’s done everything we’ve asked of her this year. Usually when they hook our California horses, reality sets in,”

It shouldn't be that hard to figure out why the press gives more attention to the Eastern horses.

Royal Delta is a champion and her and It's Tricky ran 1-2 in the BC Distaff last year.

My Miss Aurelia is an undefeated champion 2yo, not only did she win the Breeders Cup Juvenile Fillies in blowout fashion -- but she ran faster than Union Rags and a soundly defeated Alpha did on the same day and distance in similarly paced editions of the Frizette and Champagne.

Questing was basically the star of the entire Saratoga meet. Winning two Grade 1's in dominant fashion. One at 9fs and the other at 10fs.

Awesome Feather is a perfect 10-for-10 lifetime and was a champion 2-year-old filly after she won the Breeders Cup Juvenile Fillies.


No knock on Include Me Out -- she's a 2-time Grade 1 winner over the course of her 11 race career -- but anyone who is "insulted" by her not getting as much attention as those other horses and thinks it's because of a "East Coast Bias" is basically whining.

[blackthroatedwind]

What an absolutely ridiculous thing to claim. Include Me Out is a nice horse. However, she is beating absolutely nothing, and not exactly going very fast in doing it, plus she is suspect at the 1 1/8 miles of the Distaff. Amani is a FAR more dangerous West Coast horse heading to the BC.

The " East Coast bias " thing is a paranoid delusion. Is there an East Coast bias when people consider Game On Dude the top Handicap horse in the Country, or is it suspended in his case? How about I'll Have Another? Bodemeister?

It's nothing but a numbers game.

[Indian Charlie]

Originally Posted by blackthroatedwind

What an absolutely ridiculous thing to claim. Include Me Out is a nice horse. However, she is beating absolutely nothing, and not exactly going very fast in doing it, plus she is suspect at the 1 1/8 miles of the Distaff. Amani is a FAR more dangerous West Coast horse heading to the BC.

The " East Coast bias " thing is a paranoid delusion. Is there an East Coast bias when people consider Game On Dude the top Handicap horse in the Country, or is it suspended in his case? How about I'll Have Another? Bodemeister?

It's nothing but a numbers game.

In the 80s and early 90s, there most certainly was an East Coast bias, especially with year end awards.

Clearly this does not exist anymore however.

I still cannot understand Vanlandingham winning the Eclipse.

[Calzone Lord]

Originally Posted by blackthroatedwind

What an absolutely ridiculous thing to claim. Include Me Out is a nice horse. However, she is beating absolutely nothing, and not exactly going very fast in doing it, plus she is suspect at the 1 1/8 miles of the Distaff. Amani is a FAR more dangerous West Coast horse heading to the BC.

The " East Coast bias " thing is a paranoid delusion. Is there an East Coast bias when people consider Game On Dude the top Handicap horse in the Country, or is it suspended in his case? How about I'll Have Another? Bodemeister?

It's nothing but a numbers game.

I agree in general -- but I think Ellis picked an especially dopey situation to whine about it.

[Calzone Lord]

The "usually when they hook our California horses, reality sets in" line doesn't exactly prove true.

The last four horses to really establish themselves as clear-cut leaders of the handicap division in Southern California have been Lava Man, Rail Trip, Richard's Kid, and Game on Dude.


Game On Dude didn't run in California until about his 7th start. He came up at Gulfstream Park before Baffert went and got him.





Richard's Kid was a Maryland horse. Ran a bunch of races in the Mid-Atlantic before Baffert went and got him.

Rail Trip was a horse who came up in Southern California -- but he didn't do so hot when he came East.

Lava Man was a horse who came up in Northern California ... and was another one who improved under a fine So. Cal trainer.


Zenyatta is the only California based horse to win the Breeders Cup Classic since 2003 -- and she did it on Pro-Ride.

The last 6 times the Breeders Cup Distaff/Ladies Classic has been run on dirt -- no West Coast horse has won it.

No West Coast horse has won the Breeders Cup Mile since 2004.

There's only been one West Coast based winner of the Breeders Cup Turf since 1994 ... and that was Johar who dead-heated for a share of the win.

The way Ellis described it -- you'd think the California based horses win these races every single year.

[Indian Charlie]

Originally Posted by Calzone Lord

The "usually when they hook our California horses, reality sets in" line doesn't exactly prove true.

The last four horses to really establish themselves as clear-cut leaders of the handicap division in Southern California have been Lava Man, Rail Trip, Richard's Kid, and Game on Dude.


Game On Dude didn't run in California until about his 7th start. He came up at Gulfstream Park before Baffert went and got him.




Richard's Kid was a Maryland horse. Ran a bunch of races in the Mid-Atlantic before Baffert went and got him.

Rail Trip was a horse who came up in Southern California -- but he didn't do so hot when he came East.

Lava Man was a horse who came up in Northern California ... and was another one who improved under a fine So. Cal trainer.


Zenyatta is the only California based horse to win the Breeders Cup Classic since 2003 -- and she did it on Pro-Ride.

The last 6 times the Breeders Cup Distaff/Ladies Classic has been run on dirt -- no West Coast horse has won it.

No West Coast horse has won the Breeders Cup Mile since 2004.

There's only been one West Coast based winner of the Breeders Cup Turf since 1994 ... and that was Johar who dead-heated for a share of the win.

The way Ellis described it -- you'd think the California based horses win these races every single year.

Yeah, California supremacy is long dead.

[10 pnt move up]

Originally Posted by Indian Charlie

Yeah, California supremacy is long dead.

That implies that there was a supremacy, which has never been the case.

I would say the sprinter thread brings up a decent example of a true east coast bias, if you won the Vosburgh, pre BC, you were basically the sprint champion despite your other accomplishments. Since many Cal horses were not in that race they had very few sprint champions pre BC, since the BC was instituted the Sprint division is arguably their strongest area, did they suddenly get good and produce more champions, unlikely, they were never really considered.

[EJXD2]

Originally Posted by Cardus

Include Me Out is one Jay Hovdey -- who I suspect will take up the mantle for her now -- piece away from getting respect.

Well, while we wait for Jay, here's my paean to Include Me Out, who I absolutely feel is not getting the respect she deserves as a multiple Grade 1 and four-time graded stakes winner this year.

http://blog.twinspires.com/2012/09/i...-left-out.html

[pointman]

I don't get the whole east coast, west coast bias thing. Who cares where a horse is based? I play horses anywhere they run and play plenty of California racing even though I am a New Yorker. The place to settle it is on the racetrack. Seems to me the majority of the time I hear this claim it appears to be more a west coast inferiority complex than an east coast bias.

[Danzig]

Originally Posted by EJXD2

Well, while we wait for Jay, here's my paean to Include Me Out, who I absolutely feel is not getting the respect she deserves as a multiple Grade 1 and four-time graded stakes winner this year.

http://blog.twinspires.com/2012/09/i...-left-out.html

include me out is a victim?! please.

he wants her to get respect, let her win the distaff. she'll get it.
hell, alpha gets 'dissed' because of his record outside ny-is that a bias too? no, his record is pretty clear in that regard.

[Gate Dancer]

Originally Posted by blackthroatedwind

The " East Coast bias " thing is a paranoid delusion. Is there an East Coast bias when people consider Game On Dude the top Handicap horse in the Country, or is it suspended in his case? How about I'll Have Another? Bodemeister?

It's nothing but a numbers game.

I too distinctly remember the majority of praise being heaped on the West coast 3 year olds during and following the Triple Crown season. I'm a little surprised that Mr. Ellis is so 'thin-skinned'..................

We'll see what 'reality' sets in on Nov 2nd and 3rd.............

[Calzone Lord]

Originally Posted by Danzig

include me out is a victim?! please.

People don't really care that much about year-end awards right now because the way horses are being campaigned, they are almost never decided this early in any division save the glamor 3yo male division.

Basically -- he's saying Include Me Out is being "victimized" and "disrespected" by other people (not him!) and, oh yeah, he likes Amani to beat her in the Zenyatta and either Amani and Royal Delta for the BC Distaff.

Royal Delta obviously has more of a following, she's won an Eclipse Award, she's won a Breeders Cup Distaff, and earlier this year, she became only the 842nd horse since Congaree to run an all-time record Thoro-Graph figure.

Awesome Feather has more of a following, she's a perfect 10-for-10 lifetime and she's also won an Eclipse Award.

My Miss Aurelia has a following, she's also an undefeated champion.

Questing has a following, she very impressively won two Grade 1's at Saratoga and was pretty much the star of the meet this year.

Include Me Out is not a victim of any bias... and if she is the deserving leader of the vote for her older female division right now, only about 28% of the precincts have reported.

[Danzig]

Originally Posted by Calzone Lord

People don't really care that much about year-end awards right now because the way horses are being campaigned, they are almost never decided this early in any division save the glamor 3yo male division.

Basically -- he's saying Include Me Out is being "victimized" and "disrespected" by other people (not him!) and, oh yeah, he likes Amani to beat her in the Zenyatta and either Amani and Royal Delta for the BC Distaff.

Royal Delta obviously has more of a following, she's won an Eclipse Award, she's won a Breeders Cup Distaff, and earlier this year, she became only the 842nd horse since Congaree to run an all-time record Thoro-Graph figure.

Awesome Feather has more of a following, she's a perfect 10-for-10 lifetime and she's also won an Eclipse Award.

My Miss Aurelia has a following, she's also an undefeated champion.

Questing has a following, she very impressively won two Grade 1's at Saratoga and was pretty much the star of the meet this year.

Include Me Out is not a victim of any bias... and if she is the deserving leader of the vote for her older female division right now, only about 28% of the precincts have reported.

right...which is why i don't get ellis' comments, or the guys article.

and i thought they were going to santa anita for the bc two years in a row to take advantage of all the fantabulous west coast marketing? but...they can't market one mare?
it just makes no sense. and the 'victim' label is almost as overused as the 'hero' label.

[blackthroatedwind]

The best argument for Include Me Out is that she isn't that good on synth and will move forward on dirt. Based on her races earlier in the year at Santa Anita that seems entirely possible, though the sloppy track Santa Margarita ( where she ran well ) was an absurd four horse field where the co-favorite was last. While she was victimized by a premature move two back, she still lost to Love Theway Youare. Basing her talent only on the race Gradings feels like a poor way to judge her.

I still think she's a really good horse. I just don't think she has shown to be as good as the other top horses in the division. However, if she wins the Ladies Classic in five weeks, she will be a deserving champion. I don't think too many people look at it differently nor do I think people that follow the sport fail to give her the respect she deserves....assuming they're paying attention.

[King Glorious]

There always has been and always will be a bias towards the East when it comes to matters of national votes because there are more major population centers back east. There's basically no people in Montana, Wyoming, Nebraska, Kansas, Colorado, Idaho, Utah, New Mexico, Oklahoma, The Dakotas, and Nevada. Almost all of the people in what would be considered the West are in California, the Seattle/Portland corridor, and Phoenix. Some might consider the major Texas cities of Dallas and Houston to be in the West but still, it's nothing compared to the East. The I-95 corridor between Boston and Washington dominates the rest of the country as far as population and media. Right or wrong (and I think it's mostly right), people from back East have always looked at the West, and particularly California, as soft. Be a street hustler in California and if you aren't good at it and are left homeless, you won't freeze to death. You will in NY or Chicago or Detroit or Boston. The weather has a lot to do with this mentality. I don't understand how anyone can deny it exists. Like the song says, if you can make it in NY, you can make it anywhere. Easterners, especially NY'ers, have always had that mentality. Sports fans out here are very fair weather. Fans don't live and die with their teams like they do back there. They booed Santa in Philly. They came on the court to fight Ron Artest in Detroit. Having lived on both coasts, there is nothing like the East Coast.

[NTamm1215]

I'm sure what Ellis is referring to has a lot to do with the so-called experts and their opinions of her. The first 3 times that Jeff Siegel did his rankings on HRTV, he did not have Include Me Out in the Top 5 for the older female division. Mike Watchmaker has never had her in the top 5 and currently has her ranked 7th behind Awesome Maria and Plum Pretty.

Of course, can someone really get insulted by the stupidity of the likes of Watchmaker?

Include Me Out is hardly a great horse, but it is largely forgotten that she has had a pretty good year in a terrible division out west.

[blackthroatedwind]

Originally Posted by NTamm1215

I'm sure what Ellis is referring to has a lot to do with the so-called experts and their opinions of her. The first 3 times that Jeff Siegel did his rankings on HRTV, he did not have Include Me Out in the Top 5 for the older female division. Mike Watchmaker has never had her in the top 5 and currently has her ranked 7th behind Awesome Maria and Plum Pretty.

Of course, can someone really get insulted by the stupidity of the likes of Watchmaker?

Include Me Out is hardly a great horse, but it is largely forgotten that she has had a pretty good year in a terrible division out west.

How could Jeff possibly be accused of having an East Coast bias?

As for ranking her below Awesome Maria and/or Plum Pretty...that's not a bias...that's indefensible. One horse is retired after two weak efforts and the other is training up to the November sale.

[skyfire]

Originally Posted by Calzone Lord

People don't really care that much about year-end awards right now because the way horses are being campaigned, they are almost never decided this early in any division save the glamor 3yo male division.

Basically -- he's saying Include Me Out is being "victimized" and "disrespected" by other people (not him!) and, oh yeah, he likes Amani to beat her in the Zenyatta and either Amani and Royal Delta for the BC Distaff.

Royal Delta obviously has more of a following, she's won an Eclipse Award, she's won a Breeders Cup Distaff, and earlier this year, she became only the 842nd horse since Congaree to run an all-time record Thoro-Graph figure.

Awesome Feather has more of a following, she's a perfect 10-for-10 lifetime and she's also won an Eclipse Award.

My Miss Aurelia has a following, she's also an undefeated champion.

Questing has a following, she very impressively won two Grade 1's at Saratoga and was pretty much the star of the meet this year.

Include Me Out is not a victim of any bias... and if she is the deserving leader of the vote for her older female division right now, only about 28% of the precincts have reported.

Exactly.

[NTamm1215]

Originally Posted by blackthroatedwind

How could Jeff possibly be accused of having an East Coast bias?

As for ranking her below Awesome Maria and/or Plum Pretty...that's not a bias...that's indefensible. One horse is retired after two weak efforts and the other is training up to the November sale.

I think East Coast bias is just the terminology that anyone from California who feels minutely disrespected uses.

[Dahoss]

Looks like reality just set in.