Introducing a Triple Crown for Four/Five Year Olds

[ScottJ]

What does the community think about a triple crown for older (both four and five year old) horses?

The design would be that three national races would be selected at distance (1 1/4 miles, 1 1/2 miles, and a third distance to be chosen), conducted in the May to October time frame, perhaps including a Breeder's Cup event. The idea would be to win each of the three races not only in a single year, but perhaps over the course of the two years.

Purses for the three races should come in at a minimum of $2M USD. The race locations could be East Coast, West Coast, and perhaps mid-US. Would this encourage the continued participation of three years olds? Would this better capture the imagination of the US viewer and bettor?

Comments sought.

[thunderdan09]

My gut instincts tell me that this wouldn't be successful for a few reasons. The Triple Crown is the way it is because it has been around for over 80 years... At least in the order it is run today... There have been attempts to start and reconfigure New York's Triple Tiara stakes races and it has never gained national attention the way the Triple Crown does.

I'm not against the possibility of it ever happening, but we have the World Championships in the Fall every year wherever the Breeders' Cup lands. Most horses are focused on qualifying for that or are at least running in stakes races with the intention of ending up there to finish their racing season.

If this were ever going to work it would probably have to be capped off with the Breeders' Cup classic, and that race already gets attention on ESPN yearly. I just don't see anything changing. It's the Sport of Kings, people in the industry like it the way it is. I'm sure they'd love to see more people out at the tracks and racing to be what it used to be.

Let's face it. With lotteries, Vegas, Native American casino's, bingo halls, online gaming, poker rooms and the poker boom online, horse racing probably ranks in the back of the general publics mind most of the year. Without casinos and card rooms racing would be in an even tougher situation than it already is. It's barely hanging on in our biggest markets. NYRA has been in trouble, Hollywood Park and Bay Meadows closed on the West Coast for a reason... I don't recall the name but Detroit re-opened a track and closed it. Minnesota has a new harness track that's on the ropes and failing. And, I am barely touching the surface... There is room for racing in this country. It's a fantastic game and I will love it to death, but we have to be realistic and accept it for what it is. Everything being tried to bring people to the track by improving races for horse people isn't going to change anything. And a second Triple Crown series of some sort would not matter to anyone, but people like us who love racing and would enjoy another reason to be at the track during the Summer.

Canterbury Park here in Minnesota has done a great job attracting big crowds on a weekly basis, and they have done it with an 'entertainment' focus. The racing there is not great by any means. There are some very good horses running there this season. The purses range from $9,000 - $45,000 on a daily basis, with weekly stakes pushing $75,000+ regularly, but the handles are always the same. They have not changed since the track re-opened... Here in Minny, we average 5,000 fans on Thursday and Friday nights, our problem is 80% of those people would rather come out for $2 beers, $1 hotdogs/nachos/sodas/admission, than see a $2M horse race. To those people it's just another race. Horses are horses to 90% of this world. The 10% that love racing would be super enthusiastic about a new triple crown, I just don't think it would change anything at all.

[letswastemoney]

The Triple Crown became special without being forced. It wasn't originally a Triple Crown, until a writer suggested it was, and everyone just went along with the idea.

One Triple Crown is enough. It becomes too confusing to add more, as none of the other made up Triple Crowns will come close to the history and prestige as the one for 3 year olds.

[King Glorious]

I think Dan has it right that it would do very little to the general public and would not bring new fans to the game. It would be nice for people like us though but we are already hooked. I would be in favor of something being tried but I just don't know how successful it would be. I remember a series in the early 1990s that started off pretty well but tailed off. If something were to be created, I'd like it to be showcase more versatility than just being run at middle distances. Maybe something starting with the Met Mile then going to 10f then ending with 12f on grass.

[King Glorious]

I can't speak for Dan but I didn't get the impression that he was speaking of something to rival the current TC in history and prestige. I got the feeling that the thinking is more about creating something for older runners as an incentive to encourage them staying in training past their 3yo seasons.

[Stickhorse]

The public barely has any knowledge of Breeder's Cup so this idea won't work.

What could work though would be big money race the day after MLB's All Star Game. This is usually a day void of any sports and it could fill a huge vacuum. Yes it would be mid-week but that's when the Brits run many of their big races. It would have to be for older horses because you could not count on any 3YOs in early July.

[RockHardTen1985]

Originally Posted by ScottJ

What does the community think about a triple crown for older (both four and five year old) horses?

The design would be that three national races would be selected at distance (1 1/4 miles, 1 1/2 miles, and a third distance to be chosen), conducted in the May to October time frame, perhaps including a Breeder's Cup event. The idea would be to win each of the three races not only in a single year, but perhaps over the course of the two years.

Purses for the three races should come in at a minimum of $2M USD. The race locations could be East Coast, West Coast, and perhaps mid-US. Would this encourage the continued participation of three years olds? Would this better capture the imagination of the US viewer and bettor?

Comments sought.

New York would stand the best chance at doing something like this. They already have the best races and honestly its not even close anymore. They have 5 huge handicap races in place. Met Mile, Suburban, Whitney, Woodward and JCGC. Maybe offer a bonus if a horse swept them. How would offering any sort of bonus benefit NYRA?? Im just not seeing it. But if they had to they could choose 3 of the 5 races.... IMO it would be Met, Whitney and JCGC and offer a bonus if a horse swept the 3. I dont think its possible on a national scale.
I mean if you have a good handicap horse, or even a 3yr old that you think needs time to mature why would you not have him in NY for the handicap races that they offer?

[DevonshireHanover]

This is beating a dead horse but wouldn't bringing back the American Championship Racing Series be the best bet?

[Coup Verville]

Maybe something along the lines of Met Mile, Arlington Million, BC Classic? There would have to be some sort of bonus attached, but it would show some serious versatility in a horse.

[RockHardTen1985]

Originally Posted by Coup Verville

Maybe something along the lines of Met Mile, Arlington Million, BC Classic? There would have to be some sort of bonus attached, but it would show some serious versatility in a horse.

Thats a cool thought, and I love all 3 of those races. But how many Met winners or even Met runners wheel back in the Million?

[Coup Verville]

Originally Posted by RockHardTen1985

Thats a cool thought, and I love all 3 of those races. But how many Met winners or even Met runners wheel back in the Million?

Oh, I realize it's a pipe dream. It would just be a really special horse that could pull off all three. Just a fun thought.

[RockHardTen1985]

Originally Posted by Coup Verville

Oh, I realize it's a pipe dream. It would just be a really special horse that could pull off all three. Just a fun thought.

It is cool to think of who could pull that triple off.
Who recently would have even had a prayer? Animal Kingdom, maybe? Im not sure he was sharp enough for the Met Mile, who knows.....

[Coup Verville]

Originally Posted by RockHardTen1985

It is cool to think of who could pull that triple off.
Who recently would have even had a prayer? Animal Kingdom, maybe? Im not sure he was sharp enough for the Met Mile, who knows.....

AK certainly. Maybe Big Brown had he stuck around for his 4 year old season. Palace Malice wouldn't be completely out of his element trying to pull it off this year.

[RockHardTen1985]

Originally Posted by Coup Verville

AK certainly. Maybe Big Brown had he stuck around for his 4 year old season. Palace Malice wouldn't be completely out of his element trying to pull it off this year.

Curlin I guess. He lost his only turf race to Red Rocks, but Red Rocks was pretty good at times. Im not sure 8f would have worked for Curlin though. Hard Spun.... I loved Hard Spun, he was very versatile on dirt and ran well on synthetics.

[Kasept]

There was a Handicap Triple Crown for decades.. The Met, Brooklyn and Suburban. Tom Fool, Kelso and Fit to Fight won it.

There was/is the Triple Tiara too which in various guises includes the Acorn, Mother Goose, CCA Oaks and Alabama. A number of great fillies have won it including Chris Evert, Ruffian and Mom's Command.

The Triple Crown works because it's a fixture on the American sports calendar. Duplicating it's success is difficult. The Jockey Club Tour on Fox will be expanding its' offering next season and beyond and probably has the best opportunity at organically building a series of races that can be tied together along the lines of the American Championship Racing Series that Devonshirehanover references. A big money overwrap like Visa's Triple Crown Bonus would speed things along.

Going back to three years olds though, I've always thought a summer Triple Crown of the Haskell, Pennsylvania Derby and Travers had potential to be a hit.

[ScottJ]

Thank you to everyone for sharing their thoughts. All too often, we lament three years olds being pulled off the track and immediately put into sire duties. Then, we similarly grouse that unsound horses (those pulled from the track due to injury) are becoming baselines in the breeding - effectively, breeding infirmity into the sport.

So, you need to incent horses/owners to remain in training into their four and five year old seasons. As a New York racing fan, I certainly remember the handicap triple crown and the triple tiara. However, these do not have any national audience nor are they generally highlighted as their own entities sufficiently in New York. New York marketing is now focused on big single days - like the Stars and Stripes - perhaps that is the evolution of the game right before our eyes.

The goal is to make the four and five year old seasons so valuable that horses remain in training to take a shot at the bigger prizes over a period of time. While strong sires might not truly be identified until a decade from now, the first steps would be taken to strengthen the sport's recognition, broaden media coverage into the later summer, strengthen bloodlines, and move the older horses from one glory day (Breeder's Cup) onto several at a national level.

[Danzig]

maybe they should start offering incentives for gelding more horses.

[Pants II]

I get the intent...but it's not a good idea.

Today's super trainer can barely keep them running through their 3 year old campaign.

[GenuineRisk]

Originally Posted by ScottJ

The goal is to make the four and five year old seasons so valuable that horses remain in training to take a shot at the bigger prizes over a period of time. While strong sires might not truly be identified until a decade from now, the first steps would be taken to strengthen the sport's recognition, broaden media coverage into the later summer, strengthen bloodlines, and move the older horses from one glory day (Breeder's Cup) onto several at a national level.

Are there really that many 3-year-olds retiring purely for stud dollars now, though? It seems like the breeding market hasn't really recovered from the economic downturn and a lot of the top 3-year-olds have been returning. The ones that have been retiring at 3 seem to either have an injury that will take long enough to recover from that a 4-year-old campaign would be abbreviated anyway, or to have already peaked (Orb looks up, blushes, looks down) and they don't want to further depreciate the horse's value.

As a fan, I of course love the idea of a TC for older horses, but it would be very hard to get three different tracks to coordinate races, and it would be hard to sustain public interest in races that would likely be 5 weeks apart each. Part of what makes the TC work for the general public is that it all happens in 5 weeks total.

[ghartman02]

Slew O Gold won the last triple in New York, which I believe was the Marlboro Cup, The Woodward, and The Jockey Club Gold Cup. I was there that day (it was a rainy day), and I think the 10,000 or so there were the only people that cared. I also remember Mom's Command winning a filly triple, the Acorn, Mother Goose, and Coaching Club of America Stakes.
I think what differentiates the current Triple Crown is you have 1 shot. Having said that, I think if the Triple Crown was to be spaced out a little more, you could have THE Triple Crown (Derby Preakness and Belmont); on Friday have the Filly Triple Crown (Derby, Black Eyed Susan, Coaching Club); A Turf Triple (Woodford, Dixie, Manhattan). Uh oh, I went Triple crazy didn't I!